A nice article about sleeping through the night

[Fuschia]

http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/sleep/sleep.html

[Saila]

....mums really feel under pressure to get their kids to sleep through cos theyre... 'supposed to'?

really?

we were thrilled once our son began to sleep through. We stopped being cranky and arguing over nothing. I personally felt like i got my life back. i could go to work refreshed. i felt happier. i wasn't walking around like a zombie etc

Our son was noticeably happier too.

sleep deprivation was very damaging to our family

anyway - everyone's different i guess

[Fuschia]

I don't think you read it properly

'Your goal is to maximize sleep for everyone in the family, while respecting the needs of your child.

If you're meeting this goal, then ignore anyone who suggests that you do things differently. If your sleep situation is not working (or stops working) then you can always do things differently '

[Saila]

i read it - i was commenting on the assumption that this article began with.

>"Your goal is to maximize sleep for everyone in the family, while respecting the needs of your child."

... my son needed a good night's sleep too.

[Fuschia]

I think the child is considered part of the family !

[supergolden88]

I agree if you dont mind several night wakings and nursing on demand through the night then your baby doesn't have a "sleep problem". However if the frequent night wakings are making mummy (and daddy) a complete zombie, irritable and unable to cope then you DO have a problem.

I chose to do something about it. My son is 6 months. We are still working throught it and dealing with MAJOR teething (two teeth out in four weeks expecting a few more soon!) but at least I feel proactive about it. With my daughter I continued nursing through the night until she was over a year old and she woke between 2-5 times every night. By the time she was 13 months I was well past breaking point. I did controlled crying/spaced soothing and she slept through the night after. I wish I had done something sooner.

I am not suggesting controlled crying is a magic solution, nor is it for everyone (and I am sure there are other methods that work) but in my case a couple of hours of crying (both me and baby) replaced my crying nightly for months. I refuse to believe that because I chose to stop nursing at night I chose not to be nurturing! And as Saila said we are/were all better off for it. That article makes me slightly mad.

[Fuschia]

I don't think you need to feel mad if you're happy with your own choices. But What I like about the article is it normalises an approach which is not cc for those who are happy with night nursing. I don't think those who go the more conventional route need to feel attacked.

[Bumpkin]

I dont' think there's anything wrong with night nursing for babies when they are small (clearly!) but babies are creatures of habit and I imagine most would happily continue to wake to be fed throughout the night for way longer than they actually physically need to be. I see our job as to nudge them into developing an age appropriate pattern of sleeping / feeding which will no doubt be resisted at first. I certainly wish I'd done controlled crying earlier as it was damagine to me / partner / child to be quite so exhausted at all times and it was only talking to my parents generation that made me realise it was totally the norm then to get kids to sleep through way earlier and did the kids no damage at all, in fact they massively benefit from a better nights sleep.

[Fuschia]

Didn't really expect this to turn into a debate but actually evidence points to early sleeping through being related to formula, hence a bf baby's sleep pattern is actually the biological norm

Let me find the evidence

[Fuschia]

Here you go -

http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/sleep/sleepstudies.html

Quite a lot of interesting research there, particularly

'Abstract: Published norms for infant sleep/wake patterns during the first 2 years of life include an increase in length of maximum sleep bout from four to five to eight to ten hours by 4 months but little decrease in total sleep in 24 hours from 13 to 15 hours. Thirty-two breast-fed infants were followed for 2 years and data collected on 24-hour patterns of nursing and sleep. Infants who were breast-fed into the second year did not develop sleep/wake patterns in conformance with the norms. Instead of having long unbroken night sleep, they continued to sleep in short bouts with frequent wakings. Their total sleep in 24 hours was less than that of weaned infants. This pattern was most pronounced in infants who both nursed and shared a bed with the mother, common practices in many nonwestern cultures. The sleep/wake development accepted as the physiologic norm may be attributable to the early weaning and separated sleeping practiced in western culture. As prolonged breast-feeding becomes more popular in our society, the norms of sleep/wake patterns in infancy will have to be revised.'

[Saffron]

I didn't see the article attacking cc/cio approach so much as validating people who want to continue rocking Baby, b/fing (or f/fing) through the night. Little Saff was an early morning cluster feeder her whole first year. Did it make me crazy? Yes. Did I wish it were different? Yes. And I did find ways to reduce the cluster feeds. But if she wakes in the night now (15 months old) I still b/f her to sleep. However, others are always happy to offer their opinions, some more prominantly than others, and the external pressure from my boss/tutor, MIL, husband, etc has really annoyed me, even though I know they all mean well.

Btw, what is cosidered the norm for adult sleep in the Western world is also a construct of modern society. Before the advent of electric lighting and the Industrial Revolution, it was the norm for adults to go to bed early and to wake more than once in the night.

[Saila]

... this article will get *some* people's backs up. Which unfortunately (as i know that wasn't what you intended) may be why it's 'turned into a debate'.

It puts undue pressure on mothers (and dads) to persevere with the 'biological norm' and insinuates that night time wakings are what 'good' mothers (and dads) do.

When the reality is it just means more and more people 'learn the hard way' and first time round - suffer - then they approach things more realistically the next time round. - Especially if the mother is working.

My colleague at work is *still* waking many times a night cos they have basically trained their child to do this. Their daughter is now 2yrs old and he hasn't had a full nights sleep for two years. Not helped cos they live in a tiny house.

No chat of more kids for them - not for a long time. They just wouldn't cope.

i know that's not what youre saying directly but the article lends to this...

[Fuschia]

Well hardly as I am on no 4 and still following the parenting style that evolved with no 1

That's the point of the article really - there is so much pressure to conform to the norm, people find it hard not to judge each other's choices through the prism of their own experience

[Saila]

Well if you work full time, demand feed 4 kids and still have time to research and educate us all here on the edf. Hats off to you.

[Fuschia]

Well I don't demand feed them all still :-)

[bluesuperted]

I agree with Fuschia and Saffron - this wasn't a piece attacking another viewpoint, but rather it is a nice positive affirmation for elements of a parenting style that conversely always seems ripe for being attacked! Pretty much everyone from Health Visitor to family member to lady/man on the bus has told me to stop night feeding my little boy even though it doesn't bother me at all and means I wake feeling rested and completely happy with my decision. And like Saffron says even if you have all the belief instinctively that you are doing the right thing, it can be grating to have people constantly tell you you are wrong.

A friend of mine (without a baby yet) is ALWAYS asking me (despite no complaints from me about sleep deprivation etc) when am I going to sleep train? When will he be in his cot? Really, when am I going to sort it out? Why is he still waking?!? My neighbour has a child who coslept til 19 etc etc! She is a lovely girl but the last time I saw her it made me feel so bad that I'm not that keen on meeting up again until my LO is a bit older because I feel like I've made my point politely and I don't want to have to make it aggressively!

I have read parts of the Elizabeth Pantley No Cry Sleep Solution (which is a really good book from what I've gleaned) and she asks questions at the beginning about whether or not your child's specific sleep 'problem' is really a problem to you/your family, or whether it's the attitudes of those around you that are causing you anxiety and worry. For me, the latter is definitely true and until it starts causing me and my husband issues, we will keep going with the way we both are enjoying doing things. If it is causing you major problems and sleep deprivation then that is a different matter. I am lucky as my son feeds quickly and easily in the night unless he is teething/ill and he wakes up well rested and smiling so he is also not being done a disservice for not getting 12 hours straight at this stage.

And as for more babies... I plan on doing things very similarly next time (not because I am arrogant but because things have worked well for us; although I know a new baby will have completely different needs and personality) within the very demanding constraints of being a second child. Everyone is different and it hasn't put me off at all, in fact, almost everyday I have to give myself (and hubby!) a stern talking to to not start trying again very soon!!

[helena handbasket]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Didn't really expect this to turn into a debate

> but actually evidence points to early sleeping

> through being related to formula, hence a bf

> baby's sleep pattern is actually the biological

> norm

>

> Let me find the evidence

I still don't know about this....... no amount of formula on the planet would get my constant night waker to sleep more than a couple of hours. Even at 8,9,10 months. And believe me, in my zombie state I think he was having a 4 oz bottle every waking! Only because I was out of my mind, actually a bit feral by that point.

I think whatever rhythm it is you get into becomes a habit. But I don't know anyone who sleep trained out of pressure from other people. They've done it because they were going completely mental.(!)

[Belle]

I think it's a question of individual attitudes/tolerances. I have a friend who was v happy for the first six months not to have a fixed bedtime for her son,w hich meant he was up with them all evening - but was a v chilled baby, so no trouble, and it meant he slept late in the mornings. It worked for her and I never dreamt of criticising. However for us, having evenings to ourselves + decent stretches of sleep ( know these are different issues) were really important as we are both (me and husband) terrible on sleep deprivation, to the point where it majorly affected my mood. We didn't have to do sleep training as we were fortunate in that respect, at least in the first year, but I suspect if the new baby is a difficult sleeper, we may consider it at an appropriate age - IF it feels right. I don't see anything wrong with extended night feeding if that's what suits parents and baby, many of my friends do/did this and I just admire their ability to cope with it and still be cheerful people next day, I don't have that quality :-S .

[supergolden88]

From what I can gather by chatting with many mum friends and on various forums etc. the majority of babies do not sleep through the night of their own accord at least not till they are weaned on solids and sometimes not even then. That tends to be the norm. When people say "sleeps through the night" of course what they mean is without waking the parents. Everyone wakes in the night more than once but usually we fall back asleep pretty quickly without having to completely wake up.

What sleep training does is not train the baby to sleep through but to be able to fall back asleep after waking up without any assistance or parental intervention (provided baby is healthy and well fed etc.)

I say whatever works for you - if you are happy to breastfeed, bottlefeed, rock, pat, use a dummy, comforter, co-sleep then do it. If you want to use sleep training then do that. In the end we all have to do what works for us. I too find it infuriating when people ask me if baby is sleeping well/eating solids/has potty trained etc. I would never try to impose what works for me on someone else.

But as Helena said I don't know of anyone who was pressured into sleep training - none of us would choose to hear our baby cry for any length of time. It's the last resort.

[Ruth_Baldock]

BSP: I had similar comments for months and months. Seb's sleeping habits only became a real problem from about 4 1/2 months onwards, but until then, we did what you did and it worked great. By the time he was 10 months old, I was a wreck, but my husband was aokay. My Mum was all onboard to sleep train but my MIL would call me up just after I'd put him down, comment she could hear him crying, and make pained noises and talk about being 'cruel' and 'brutal' and 'just shh him to sleep' (I did this once, it took almost three hours. Then he woke up 45 minutes later...). Sleep training Seb was the hardest thing I've ever had to do, I was a nervous wreck during the process, but I felt we'd hit the wall, so to speak, and on average, I was only getting about 3.5 hours sleep in total a night. I went back to work and kept falling asleep on the bus, only to be woken up by the driver at the end of the route :/

However, I have friends who have their 18mo old up with them till 10:30, then go to bed for a breastfeed, then they all sleep soundly till 10am the next morning; works fab for them (their little girl is nice and calm in the evenings; Seb would crawl around like a maniac...) so I guess it truely is different strokes.

[Moos]

The article (or perhaps the timing of Fuschia's post) resonated with me. About a month ago, Twosling was waking every hour or two to feed which was no joke and the resulting tiredness was putting a lot of pressure on the rest of the family. Now thanks to sleep counselling - not controlled crying** - he's waking to feed once or sometimes twice between 11 and 6/6.30. Previously his night feeds were very short as he was too tired to feed properly, so they were mostly upsetting and frustrating for me. Now his 3am-ish feed is a genuine pleasure: unlike the easily distracted day feeds of a busy 6 mo, he is relaxed and cuddly but feeds vigorously and conks out afterwards. It feels peaceful, nurturing and lovely and for the time being I feel we've reached equilibrium. Oh, and with the help of a bit of coffee, I'm rested enough properly to nurture my 4 yo. So that says to me that it's all about balance and finding what's right for the whole family, not excluding the poor mother's right to feel human.

Personally I've never experienced pressure to "make" my children sleep through, only sympathy that they were both such dodgy sleepers... not sure that sleeping through is necessarily the norm, or the convention, before a year or so? However, I don't know how helpful it is to compare how we live with non-Western or earlier societies.. we are Western, and 21st C and there are so many, many ways in which how we live is different. Picking out baby sleep seems a bit arbitrary. That's my instinctive response, at least.

** P.S. Not anti-CC as such - agree with Sg88 that it's a last resort... just glad we haven't had to go there.

[Belle]

Out of interest Moos, what is sleep counselling?

[Moos]

Oh sorry - called the Millpond sleep clinic after it was so well reviewed on here, and a counsellor has been talking us through our son's pattern: eating, sleeping and playing, when and how to wean, what the rest of the family is like etc. and helped us find methods to help him sleep better. Sleep training by any other name, but what I meant was, we weren't able to do it without expert help.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Ooh yes, Millpond v good :) Well done to you Moos, and little twosling. I used to dread/hate night-feeds until Cheeky S started sleeping better and then I couldn't WAIT for his 6.30 bf- after which he'd conk out in our bed till 8-9am. Lush!

I really hope, by some divine luck, that Baby Baldock Mark II is one of those mythical babies that feeds every 4 hours,doesn't cry when they wake, has a nice feed then goes off to sleep QUIETLY until the next feed, then sleeps through at 12w (hahahah ha ha ha HA). This is unlikely. I don't even know how you'd sleep train a baby in a 2bdr flat, when they're sharing with their older sibling?!

[Fuschia]

Ruth, my baby no 4 meets the middle criteria in your list so there is hope!