Child Free areas

[macroban]

> The other day I was walking down Lordship Lane and two mothers with buggies and small kids had stopped for a chat between the post office and the bus stop. Of course I fully understand that if you are at home with kids and go out shopping it is nice to stop and chat with another adult, who will very likely be another mother. However, between that really busy bus stop and the post office! They were there for ages to as I walked down to Scumerfield for a few items and they were still there when I walked back. No-one could get by them without being given daggers so people (including the old and other people with children) were having to walk on the outside of the bus stop to get by - which could be dangerous. Bascially they were treating everyone else as 2nd class citizens.

This has happened to me too in another Lordship Lane location and I had to walk in the gutter with my shopping bags.

Some people in the new East Dulwich treat old people as undermenschen.

[mockney piers]

Blimey!!!

And we wonder why our kids turn into resentful behooded teenagers at the margins of society?

[Thequietone]

Be fair !

They treat everybody as untermenschen that they do not know. It is not a class or aspirational thing. They are horrible unpleasant and part of the living dead that inhabit the suburbs with their continuous refrain of "Don't do that darling don't do that darling don't do that darling."

From their inanimate faces I guess they say it to their hubbies too.

Paul

[Ultraconsultancy]

Are we really talking about the practicalities of managing intolerance here? How would any of you feel about a request for a woman free space, or an immigrant free space, or , ironically, a curmudgeon free space?

Ultraconsultancy

[*Bob*]

How about a 'same forum threads pointlessly rehearsed ad nauseum' free space?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

The other day I was walking down Lordship Lane and two mothers with buggies and small kids had stopped for a chat between the post office and the bus stop. Of course I fully understand that if you are at home with kids and go out shopping it is nice to stop and chat with another adult, who will very likely be another mother. However, between that really busy bus stop and the post office! They were there for ages to as I walked down to Scumerfield for a few items and they were still there when I walked back. No-one could get by them without being given daggers so people (including the old and other people with children) were having to walk on the outside of the bus stop to get by - which could be dangerous. Bascially they were treating everyone else as 2nd class citizens.

Why didn't you just ask/tell them to get out of everyones way? Were they tooled up?

[Cassius]

You must be joking - they were well scary and far bigger than me!

[melbournite]

Brilliant! This is my absolute favourite subject (joint first with house prices). It seems amazing that if you voice anything but absolute tolerance of being screamed at by 1 yr olds while trying to enjoy an afternoon pint then you are a child hating monster. I get that 1 yr olds can hit a pitch that only the juvenile voice box can muster and I get that this cannot often be predicted or controlled by the parent. However for the love of God when your kid has been doing this repeatedly for about 20 minutes it must enter your consciousness at some level that the people around you might not be finding this as cute as you are. Maybe it?s time to take little Oscar or India outside for a few minutes for the remainder of the tantrum!

[Thequietone]

I met Oscar today in Somerfield.

He was playing with the till gate.

Yummy Mummy told him four times to stop and he paid no attention.

Just continued as he knew his Mother was weak.

She could not control a hamster.

Women should be licenced to breed.

Paul

[PeckhamRose]

I agree with Cassius.

Having the courage to say we'd like a childfree area is such a brave thing to say as immediately everyone says "Oh why do you hate kids?!" I don't hate kids. I love them. I have not got any but that was my choice. I am naturally protective. I am the best person in an emergency because I am cool calm collected and make the right decisions (and carry a first aid kit on the bike and am trained). Indeed children sometimes come to me because they know they will be treated as adults (and they get curious about seeing the bike or my helmet). However, I also would wish to choose to be social in an area whether it be restaurant or pub where I can have a nice quiet drink or meal and not be interruoted by screaming badly behaved kids running around whose parents thinks they're little darlings are expressing their individuality, when actually they're badly behaved kids expressing the fact their parents don't have an iota of concern or care about discipline or "boundaries". So there. The Wetherspoon pubs were one of the first chains to merely become middle/upper class McDonalds and the staff at The Fox On The Hill and others risked life and limb and legal costs by carrying hot food to customers whose kids were running around, but the staff were unable to do anything about it. Now this happens many places. So thanks to those who recommended other childfree areas, such as my local the Clockhouse.

Cassius Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well funnily enough I asked the question before I

> got the answers - I find that usually happens.

> Now I have the answers I will look out the pubs

> that have been recommended.

> Incidentally I have no problems with well behaved

> children ...............

[Ganapati]

Women should be licensed to breed? Mothers are now "part of the living dead that inhabit the suburbs with their continuous refrain of "Don't do that darling don't do that darling don't do that darling." From their inanimate faces I guess they say it to their hubbies too."?

Charming how this thread went from wanting child-free environs to some misogynistic rant. Pray tell, where are the fathers in all this? Or should only the mothers be blamed when little Oscar goes off the rails?

Child free areas are like smoke free areas (when there was such a thing to worry about). There is no way to do it effectively without banning them/ completely. The noise will always spill over just as the smoke did.

[Spangles30]

I have it on good authority that the new 'Tea Shop', Lordship Lane (the one Janice Turner described as 'prissy' with waitresses with 'bad attitudes') does not welcome children much. The owner is alleged to have said (again on good authority) that he spent a lot of money on furnishings and doesn't want the place trashed by young, out of control children. He has a point I suppose.

[SimonM]

>>The owner is alleged to have said (again on good authority) that he spent a lot of money on furnishings and doesn't >>want the place trashed by young, out of control children. He has a point I suppose.<<

Then why not put a nice big sign in the window to advertise the fact, and allow people to decide whether they wish to patronise the premises before they enter? The CPT follows a variation of this policy and consquently I have never risked going in there in dirty work clothes...:))

[mightyroar]

I agree that 'licensed to breed' comment is sooo offensive I cant believe it's still on here. Or is that some kind of (failing) attempt at humour? Did you read what you had read before you posted it?

[Domitianus]

mightyroar Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I agree that 'licensed to breed' comment is sooo

> offensive I cant believe it's still on here. Or is

> that some kind of (failing) attempt at humour?

> Did you read what you had read before you posted

> it?

Well, people do have to be thoroughly investigated and assessed before being allowed to adopt, don't they? And people who are found to have neglected or absued animals can be banned for life from keeping animals again. Do children not deserve the same protection? I would assume that the originator of the phrase "licensed to breed" was, somewhat tongue in cheek, making what I think is the valid point that some parents seem to be so utterly inept and deficient in basic parenting skills that the observer could legitimately express concern over their fitness to be parents and their children's welfare.

Of course there is no way any sort of licensing for parenthood could actually be introduced but when you see the damage done to some kids by their parents it is a thought that I am sure has crossed many people's minds. I used to know a middle-aged lady who had been awarded an OBE for her lifetime of work at Save The Children and she told me that she had often had very similar thoughts. I guess, however, that part of our society's PC manifesto is that people have the inalienable right to have children no matter how unfit for the task they might be.

[Scruffy Mummy]

Many pubs/bars are open to group hosting meetings/events/themed nights in back rooms i.e. films clubs, book groups, WI, lesbian and gay nights, jazz nights, book swap nights etc. etc.

If the child-free of East Dulwich are really concerned and want more child-free spaces (and aren't just using this extremely tired debate as a way to express anti-woman and anti-mother comments as some poster seem to), why you don't approach a local bar/pub owner with the idea of having a regular child-free afternoon/night in a back room. You don't have to open a pub or restaurant youself. If it's such a big concern, they it'll be completlely over-run, the bar owner will see it as being lucrative and financially viable.

If not, well, as economists say the market will decide!!

[mojo]

Hi I am new to the Forum, but can say that pubs & bars are governed by the Licensing Authority through Southwark Council, they give out the Licences and state the Regulations for children in bars, as for restaurants that surely is down to them.

[Ganapati]

Domitianus Wrote:

I guess,

> however, that part of our society's PC manifesto

> is that people have the inalienable right to have

> children no matter how unfit for the task they

> might be.

So it's now PC to want to have children? What would you suggest Dom, some sort of regulatory system like China? That's gone down a treat hasn't it? Shall we go for enforced sterilisation like India tried in the 70's? So all these middle class mothers are somehow unfit, who else is unfit then? This is surely a wind up.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Bring back eugenics! I was going to go into a rant, but can't be arsed cos Dom's post has to be a wind up.

[luddite]

well 'le chandelier ' will be child free very soon by all accounts .

[cdonline]

I don't really understand what could be entertaining or enjoyable for kids having to to spend their day playing at a pub, whether it has a garden or not.

This is not about the children, but the choices the parents make.

[Domitianus]

I think both Ganapati and CWALD could perhaps take some comfort from my comment that I do not envisage or advocate the actual possibility of any sort of compulsory childbirth control being introduced into the UK. Also, they might notice the distinction between my sentiments and those of the extreme examples cited. China has a limit on the number of children a family can have for, I believe, population control and economic reasons - India, much they same. My vague sympathy with the original poster on the subject of 'licensing' breeding was not for such mercenary or statist reasons but was due to concern that there are clearly many children in our society who suffer terribly from unfit parents (which can be manifested in many ways - not merely physical violence or neglect) and our society seems powerless to do anything preventative about this as the only options are draconian and unrealistic ones like the one the original poster mentioned. I was attempting to encourage consideration and debate of this situation.

My use of the term 'PC' may have been poor, I accept that, but what I meant by that is it is one of those situations when we see the consequences of two conflicting sets of 'rights' - the 'right' of people to have children without interference from others in that choice - and the 'right' of a child to expect that society demands minimal standards of care and competence from its parents. It is a difficult dilemma to resolve and I was merely pointing out that, beneath the rather extreme solution advocated by the original poster (and I did acknowledge that I suspected it was rather tongue in cheek), there is a serious debate. What do we do, as a society, when someone chooses to have children and we know that the children will suffer endlessly due to the ineptitude or worse of the parents? What does society do with a parent who has had two children already and had them taken into care due to abuse or neglect? Do we just sit on our hands and hope that things will be different third time round? Do we offer parenting skills classes and support that may well be spurned? Do we just take the child off the parents the moment it is born, creating more trauma and resentment all round? What do we do when someone makes a posting on a contentious issue of social/racial/gender politics? Do we entertain the possibility that they are attempting to make a serious point and engage with that? Do we dig into the post a little deeper to identify the point being made and then refute it rationally? Do we just assume the person is racist, misogynist, sexist and instantly attack their character and motives? Do we go to Le Chandelier for a nice, calming cup of tea?

[Ganapati]

Dom--you need to reread thequietone's post. You're talking about children of serious cases of abuse, he is talking about rude, middle class mums not controlling their children. There is a vast sea of difference. Now, who do you propose should be swept into parenting classes?

[ClaireinSE22]

I'm more worried about my own behaviour that than of the kids. If I go to the pub I might want to indulge in such behaviour as letting go of the occasional expletive - and maybe some racey conversation. I might choose to get a bit worse for wear, and smoke, if the pub has a garden. Unlike many of their own parents, I'm abit shy of displaying such 'adult' behaviour in front of the impressionable.

A couple of hours on a sunny afternoon in a pub with a playground seems perfectly innocent to me. But I certainly don't want to see children under twelve (i.e. the ones that are liable to be aeroplanes and banshees etc) in a pub in the evening. There are too many kids in The Herne who should have had their bath and bedtime story by 8pm. Yes, parents are entitled to a social life, that's why there are baby sitters. Or if things are tight you can take it in turns with another mum and dad. There aren't any excuses.

[mightyroar]

Ah Ganapati, the quiet voice of reason. as ever. I agree with you entirely.

But Clairese22, Dom- perhaps we need a national curfew? After the breeding licence has been approved, and the children are born, then they are micro chipped at birth, and if caught out in a public space after 8pm then their parents are publicly whipped?