Child Free areas

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I know a place! go to the kebab and wine and ask to go through the secret door...(wink wink) no kids there at all!

[EDOldie]

Perhaps we should start a campaign to allow smoking again, as the only place in England, in East Dulwich pubs and see a return to our proper working class roots, a bit like that Museum of Wales. We could send the children up the chimneys, that'll keep'em quiet

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

EDOldie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps we should start a campaign to allow

> smoking again, as the only place in England, in

> East Dulwich pubs and see a return to our proper

> working class roots, a bit like that Museum of

> Wales. We could send the children up the chimneys,

> that'll keep'em quiet

>:D< a bit of hard work never killed anyone...ok maybe some...

[Ganapati]

These threads always depress me a little. Having lived on the continent, where children always seem to be welcome, or at least present, whenever and wherever, I wonder if this attitude says something about the British as a people. I remember going to Barcelona on holiday and drooling over the menu at some posh restaurant. We didn't dare go in as we had our baby with us. But the maitre d' saw us and when he asked us if we wanted to come in, we said oh no, it's too small ((we had our pram) and our baby is too loud, he swept us inside, moved furniture around, and generally bent over backward for us. And the waiter even took our baby off our hands and asked if he could show her to the kitchen staff. None of the other patrons seemed to give a fig--even those whose tables were moved a bit to accomodate us.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I just think in general with the Brits, kids are always seen and not heard, and also because now people are working harder, longer , they are quite stressed and just want to escape, and to go to places where kids are running amok, it enough to cause kiddy rage....ohhh, I have made up a new rage....well we have car rage and plane rage and the rest!:))

I am not bothered personally as I am a nanny, an auntie, and love kids but I can also understand why some people would just want to get away from it all.

It is different abroad but it has always been like that abroad, they are very family oriented, whereas londoners are not so much these days.

Ganapati Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> These threads always depress me a little. Having

> lived on the continent, where children always seem

> to be welcome, or at least present, whenever and

> wherever, I wonder if this attitude says something

> about the British as a people. I remember going to

> Barcelona on holiday and drooling over the menu at

> some posh restaurant. We didn't dare go in as we

> had our baby with us. But the maitre d' saw us and

> when he asked us if we wanted to come in, we said

> oh no, it's too small ((we had our pram) and our

> baby is too loud, he swept us inside, moved

> furniture around, and generally bent over backward

> for us. And the waiter even took our baby off our

> hands and asked if he could show her to the

> kitchen staff. None of the other patrons seemed to

> give a fig--even those whose tables were moved a

> bit to accomodate us.

[EDOldie]

We wouldn't have all these lovely bars and places to eat in East Dulwich if they weren't child friendly. Mind you I've not seen any kids in 'Inside 72' (or whatever it's called). Me and Mrs Oldie had to leave last time we went in it was too loud for us. Actually, I have seen kids in there.

[ed_pete]

Surely this is just a question of market forces as its lucrative for pubs to attract families with money to spend. Why not ask to speak to the landlord/owner and try to persaude them to establish a "no-go" area for children.

[JoeChuff]

Kids shouldn't be allowed in pubs, they never get a round in or anything

[*Bob*]

Perhaps refer to this thread:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,44665,page=1

(The last time a child free blah blah thread came up. I'm sure there were a few others before it as well.

[Domitianus]

Ganapati Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> These threads always depress me a little. Having

> lived on the continent, where children always seem

> to be welcome, or at least present, whenever and

> wherever, I wonder if this attitude says something

> about the British as a people. I remember going to

> Barcelona on holiday and drooling over the menu at

> some posh restaurant. We didn't dare go in as we

> had our baby with us. But the maitre d' saw us and

> when he asked us if we wanted to come in, we said

> oh no, it's too small ((we had our pram) and our

> baby is too loud, he swept us inside, moved

> furniture around, and generally bent over backward

> for us. And the waiter even took our baby off our

> hands and asked if he could show her to the

> kitchen staff. None of the other patrons seemed to

> give a fig--even those whose tables were moved a

> bit to accomodate us.

I can't believe this thread got this far without me having noticed (or originated) it. Nice to see that there seem to be some who agree with my general feelings, however. I just wish some of them had expressed them during previous threads when I was taking considerable abuse on this same subject.

What "depresses me" - a lot, is the extreme reactions that seem to be elicited when someone asks for some consideration to be displayed to those who do not wish to have to effectively baby-sit or endure the ungoverned behaviour of other peoples' children when in public. The reaction to such requests is often to accuse the person expressing the opinion of being a child-hater, which is a ridiculously fundamentalist position to take. ie. "if you don't want other peoples' unsupervised children to be swarming around you when you are trying to relax and enjoy yourself a little, you must hate children." Bo**ocks!

What it comes down to, in my opinion, is a simple matter of consideration and respect for others and that is what absolutely enrages me about this whole subject and what other people don't seem to get. When someone allows their child to run around, scream, bang cutlery on the table, crawl under my chair, bang into me etc; or expects me to automatically step off the pavement to let a bunch of pram-pushers walk three abreast down a street etc etc, all without the slightest gesture of appreciation or apology to the frustration and inconvenience that I am caused - they are effectively saying to me "I have absolutely no consideration for your welfare, rights or comfort and expect my whim and convenience to be considered more valuable than yours". Such an attitude, communicated regularly and consistently, cannot help but irritate the people on the receiving end. A modicum of acknowledgment or consideration for others from those who seem to consider them and their children to be the centre of the universe would, I am sure, be reciprocated by people like myself a hundred times over. Unfortunately, in my experience and that of other friends I know, such consideration is as rare as hen's teeth in ED. THAT is why people like me get p****d off - it is nothing to do with "hating children" or anything of the sort. You can only spend so long in a community being treated like some lower form of life (sometimes reminiscent of the caste system) before you lose your temper and push back a bit. I guess the reason this subject keeps coming up is because the same behaviour by selfish parents and their kids keeps being repeated!

[Ganapati]

Dom--I hope you're not picking me out as one of those parents, bc frankly I don't go anywhere with my children these days, especially to all of those pubs in ED. I went once for takeaway at Le Chandelier and got such an annoyed look from the owner I simply left. It just strikes me as strange that people bang on about children so much. I don't think of myself as a lover of children just because I have some. In fact, my husband was the one pressing to have them. But even when I was childless, I didn't really care that kids weere running about in the background--and if you think ED is bad, you should see how some cafes in the more "child-friendly" countries of Europe get. I remember our local Sunday breakfast place always being full of kids. Can't explain it, but it simply never bothered me. Now the smoking on the other hand...

[Domitianus]

It really isn't the kids to be honest - it is the way their parents often (and of course there are exceptions - you may well be one) seem to have no respect for others and view the whole of ED as being an extended playground or nursery. In my experience, having lived in a number of parts of the UK, I have never experienced such a concentrated attitude anywhere but in ED and it is quite amazing. Personally, I very much enjoy having children around, provided that parents recognise that I am there as well and am also entitled to a bit of consideration. It is this that seems to be sadly lacking. If you are a non-parent in the vicinity of many of these people you are treated almost as some sort of domestic help who is expected to assist or at least put up with things without complaint. That is what annoys me. There is surely a middle way that all can be comfortable with but at the moment I don't think we are anywhere near it. I sympathise with your experience of being made to feel unwelcome and I suspect that you may be unfairly paying the price for the type of behaviour I have mentioned that other parents allow to happen and that traders in the area may now fear is typical of all parents with kids. Consequently it should surely be in your interests as well as mine and others to encourage other parents to be more responsible itn public so that everyone isn't tarred with the same brush? Previous postings from me have pointed out that it can be delightful to be in a bar or restaurant with children who are well supervised and controlled but it just seems so difficult to find examples of that in ED.

[Ganapati]

But Dom, EVERYONE thinks their kids are well-behaved. ;-)

[mightyroar]

wow. the forum is for venting though after all.

But as we all know, good news is no news. How many people are going to be on thread that says ' o the other day all the kids in the cafe were really well behaved'?

personally, if you offer me some kind of courtesy in a public space then i'm going to thank you. But if there are 2 kids in my buggy and 2 walking along with me and they are all under 5 then the chances are i'll have my work cut out watching them all and I may neglect to hand out praise for some fabulously selfless behaviour such as moving to one side of the pavement. consider me chastised.

[tiddles]

I have two utterly delightful children who know how to behave. We know lots of uttlerly delightful children who don't. I completely understand an adult's desire to go to a child free zone. I like going to the pub with my children BUT am very aware that this is usually a place for "grown ups" I think pubs should quite clearly state if they are happy to have kids on the premises (with the exception of the baby so small it is still in the car seat under the table)or not. The gowlett have a very good policy of all kids out by 9pm - we all know where we stand those that find them irritating know when they can breathe a sigh of relief. Having said that - isn't it annoying how many people insist on ignoring the 'child free zone' notice in dulwich park cafe??

[Asset]

OK, how about this, your two utterly delightful children go with you to a pub for Sunday lunch. They are sitting fairly nicely at the table etc etc. Then, a family comes in with a couple of kids of around the same age who proceed to run around and be noisy. Your children see this and naturally want to join in. How can you tell your kids to sit still and eat nicely when there are other kids running riot? Believe me, I've been in this situation.

When and if you are a parent you will encounter this.

[tiddles]

easy,my kids know you don't do this - the words 'please don't do this' and 'don't even think about it' are actually very easy to say. I should add that mine are 6 and 9 so they understand about how to behave in public. I admit, the 2 - 4 yrs are more tricky!! (we HAVE left early do to complete lack of co-operation before!!)

cheers Jan

[tiddles]

actually that was "due" to complete lack of co-operation - sorry!

[Ganapati]

As I said, EVERYONE thinks their kids are well-behaved. :))

[nancysmum]

as a newish mum (mine is almost 1) i have followed this thread with interest. I don't think asking for child free areas is too unreasonable, but i do think that tolerance is a virtue that most of us (me included sometimes!) seem to have low reserves of. My partner believes that children should not witness adults drinking alcohol so he would be with the original poster of this thread. He wouldn't allow children in pubs but also he wouldn't allow people to drink in the streets or on bistro style tables on the pavements. He can be quite radical! Personally I think while most parents try to do their best, some have the attitude that its their and their children's right to do as they please and not give a fig for anyone else's need for tranquility. when i am out with my little one, if she gets vocal (and believe me she can be!), i try to distract her with something that will keep her entertained. if that doesn't work, i take her out (not as in american movie "Take her out", rather just take her into the fresh air for a bit). Often children want to be seen and heard, so if mine starts to kick off, i talk to her...not conducive to having an adult conversation with my dining partners, but effective at keeping screaming / shouting to a minimum! God knows what i do once she's able to walk / run / pretend to be an aeroplane! Maybe I should talk to her about reducing carbon emissions?!

[Asset]

my youngest is 3. It is very difficult to reason with a 3 year old. I don't for one moment think that my children are well behaved all the time and god, how boring they would turn out if they were!

Children will never learn how to behave in social situations if they are not put in them, and personally I advocate taking children to restaurants etc. I don't however advocate bad behaviour.

But bad behaviour is subjective. Some people might consider a child that is talking a little loudly to be badly behaved, but do you remember being a child and trying to make a point in a conversation, only to have the adults at the table ignore you? Again, children will never learn how to moderate their behaviour in social situations without practice.

[Ganapati]

You're right Asset, but right now I am TERRIFIED of taking my 3 yo and nearly 1 yo ANYWHERE, especially at such a place as Le Chandelier where it's obvious they don't want kids around unless I suppose they are in a strait jacket with their mouth taped shut.

[Asset]

I know, it's horrible. Especially when there are people around giving you looks like you are a bad mother if your child makes a noise. Sadly it is a very British condition.

[Cassius]

Domitianus Wrote:

or expects me to

> automatically step off the pavement to let a bunch

> of pram-pushers walk three abreast down a street

> etc etc, all without the slightest gesture of

> appreciation or apology to the frustration and

> inconvenience that I am caused - they are

> effectively saying to me "I have absolutely no

> consideration for your welfare, rights or comfort

> and expect my whim and convenience to be

> considered more valuable than yours".

The other day I was walking down Lordship Lane and two mothers with buggies and small kids had stopped for a chat between the post office and the bus stop. Of course I fully understand that if you are at home with kids and go out shopping it is nice to stop and chat with another adult, who will very likely be another mother. However, between that really busy bus stop and the post office! They were there for ages to as I walked down to Scumerfield for a few items and they were still there when I walked back. No-one could get by them without being given daggers so people (including the old and other people with children) were having to walk on the outside of the bus stop to get by - which could be dangerous. Bascially they were treating everyone else as 2nd class citizens.

[Brendan]

Can?t say I like it when they?re screaming in my ear on Sunday morning but other than that I think kids are great! They know how to truly live, a skill we tend to forget as we get older.

Just found out by text from South Africa that there is a new addition to my extended family! :))(tu):)-D(tu):))One more person to smile politely at my ramblings when I?m old and grey.