Loz Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Angelina Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> I agree, Joe. losing the character of a place is a> cost of gentrification. Just look at Brixton - an> entire culture has all but disappeared. And while> it may be good as it is, that's subjective.Although in Brixton's case, it has arguably re-gentrified. It was really very middle-class up until WW2, which you can see in buildings like Morleys and the Ritzy. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1179942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigello Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 You could argue that the "culture" of Brixton has disappeared several times over the past century, so there is no reason why it shouldn't change again, like SE15/22/23 and all the other 'burbs that are not already "up there" like SE21. Things change, money talks, people move around more....C'est la vie. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1179944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adonirum Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 DF, I go back even further and you are quite right, crime has never been so prevalent so I agree not safer, but I feel the changes have been for the better and therefore it is a nicer place on the whole. Vast increases in crime have come hand-in-hand with ED's new(ish) found affluence, pretty much like anywhere else really, scumbags looking for easy rich pickings. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1179951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLeg Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Nigello Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> You could argue that the "culture" of Brixton has> disappeared several times over the past century,> so there is no reason why it shouldn't change> again, like SE15/22/23 and all the other 'burbs> that are not already "up there" like SE21. Things> change, money talks, people move around> more....C'est la vie.All of that is true, things like this are part and parcel of the ever-changing nature of conurbations.But sometimes, I hope you'd agree, the culture being lost is a vibrant, entertaining and interesting one; despite its flaws and troubles (and I'm not blind to them by any means) Brixton was always somewhere I felt lucky to live near. What it's being replaced with is somewhat anodyne and frankly dull. Yes, the street crack dealers have gone, and with them the harm they bought, but so has much else. Gentrification is inevitable, there no law against it, and it has tremendous benefits, but I hope in the future we find a better way of doing it. A lot of culture and history has gone. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1179952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowy Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Joe, I think you'll find that the street dealers are still there; just that technology has hidden then a little! Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1179978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigello Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 I think "vibrant" and "diversity" are - by dint of overuse/misuse - becoming empty words, ones that people parrot without being able to really understand them. Culture is everywhere, it just may not be your cup of tea, or you may not be able to/fussed to find it. How do you know that those who are "coming in" are not providing new avenues for fresh cultural pursuits? Lots happens but we are not aware of most of it because we simply have no interest in or knowledge of it. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1179988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnL Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 snowy Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> Joe, I think you'll find that the street dealers> are still there; just that technology has hidden> then a little!Stand on the street corner or at the bar and watch :)I have nicknames for them. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulu1973 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 I'm sick of this gentrification label. It assumes that the 'rich' move into an area and get rid of the so called 'soul' of the community. You'll find a lot of people move into areas because they see a future and want to be part of the tapestry, yet the very thing that attracts them they get ostracised by muppets such as dulwich fox wishing for the good old days. Stores come and go all the time...even in the 'good old days' there were always favourites that close down.Rather than just blaming gentrification, why not shop more in those stores you love Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnL Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 paulu1973 Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> I'm sick of this gentrification label. It assumes> that the 'rich' move into an area and get rid of> the so called 'soul' of the community. You'll find> a lot of people move into areas because they see a> future and want to be part of the tapestry, yet> the very thing that attracts them they get> ostracised by muppets such as dulwich fox wishing> for the good old days. Stores come and go all the> time...even in the 'good old days' there were> always favourites that close down.> > Rather than just blaming gentrification, why not> shop more in those stores you loveI don't think the problem with gentrification is where we arenow - it's the endgame (whatever that is). The article below from 2016 can be updated, we have foxtons now,we still have a few fried chicken places but loads more pizza places,loads of flats being built, coffee houses (nice small ones).So we're in the nice phase but as the OP states some people being forcedout already . https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/24/the-bubble-that-turned-into-a-tide-how-london-got-hooked-on-gentrification Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DulwichFox Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 paulu1973 Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> I'm sick of this gentrification label. It assumes> that the 'rich' move into an area and get rid of> the so called 'soul' of the community. You'll find> a lot of people move into areas because they see a> future and want to be part of the tapestry, yet> the very thing that attracts them they get> ostracised by muppets such as dulwich fox wishing> for the good old days. Stores come and go all the> time...even in the 'good old days' there were> always favourites that close down.> > Rather than just blaming gentrification, why not> shop more in those stores you loveNice to see that on your very first post you start by insulting people.I'm Honoured you have singled The Fox out. So last year.Take note, I The Fox did not start this thread, but no such insults to Original Poster. DF Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLeg Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 paulu1973 Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> I'm sick of this gentrification label. It assumes> that the 'rich' move into an area and get rid of> the so called 'soul' of the community. You'll find> a lot of people move into areas because they see a> future and want to be part of the tapestry, yet> the very thing that attracts them they get> ostracised by muppets such as dulwich fox wishing> for the good old days. Stores come and go all the> time...even in the 'good old days' there were> always favourites that close down.> > Rather than just blaming gentrification, why not> shop more in those stores you loveThere's so much wrong with this post that I don't even know where to start... Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLeg Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Nigello Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> I think "vibrant" and "diversity" are - by dint of> overuse/misuse - becoming empty words, ones that> people parrot without being able to really> understand them. Culture is everywhere, it just> may not be your cup of tea, or you may not be able> to/fussed to find it. How do you know that those> who are "coming in" are not providing new avenues> for fresh cultural pursuits? Lots happens but we> are not aware of most of it because we simply have> no interest in or knowledge of it.Some good points that provoke thought, but I still disagree with much of your view. However, were moving into the realms of the subjective now and I have no desire to start an argument over differing points of view, to which we are all entitled. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnL Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 OKHere's a critical articles on Gentrification (I dwelt on nice things above)https://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2017/mar/24/gentrification-kings-cross-forces-people-from-housing-crisisremember "But eventually, you too are likely to be priced out and displaced." Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 There are problems with the lack of affordable housing and high rents. But it's too easy to blame these problems on 'incomers'. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_b Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 rahrahrah Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> I don't understand why people who have moved into> an area aren't considered 'part of the community'.> After how long are they designated part of the> community? In the West Country where I'm originally from it's about three generations even if you only move from the next village over! 'Those London types' are never really from round 'ere. More seriously it is a reasonable question, especially as London is so big that it's hard to quantify what makes someone an incomer. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loz Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 alex_b Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> More seriously it is a reasonable question,> especially as London is so big that it's hard to> quantify what makes someone an incomer.Generally it comes down to "more money than me". Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah Blah Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 I think the issue with gentrification is not so much the ebb, flow and evolution of an area, but the speed with which the change is happening at the moment. I was trying to think of when there was last anything on this scale of change. The mass building programmes of the late 60's early 70's perhaps? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
herne hilly Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 I have to agree with Blah Blah - its how fast this "gentrification" or cleansing or what ever you want to call it has evolved.Would say up to about the early 2000s - everyone had the chance to get a foot on the property ladder, no matter who you were - postman, shop worker, teacher etc. Where now to be it seems you have to be in a couple, both with high flying city jobs to be living in the SE21/22/24 area. The local shops were run independently. No one had a coffee addiction or intolerance to gluten or lactose.But times change and all those little local shop owners are at retiring age or can't afford the rents, so in swoop the chains. Plus all the flats being built with a supermarket chain underneath.I'm starting to feel like the only pauper in the village. I just guess slowly , we will turn into the hampstead/primrose hill of the south. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seabag Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 I'm sure the Fox isn't complaining about the value of his mortgage free house increasing.Gentrification adds value, i'm sure we wouldn't want degradation in ED would we? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DulwichFox Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Seabag Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> I'm sure the Fox isn't complaining about the value> of his mortgage free house increasing.> > Gentrification adds value, i'm sure we wouldn't> want degradation in ED would we?House prices across London have fallen by 0.6% in the last quarter Nationwide B.S. and are estimated to fall further.When I had my first Mortgage 1980 ..?15,000, interest rates were 15% and rose to 17% for a short period. Paying ?370 P/M Wages ?400 p/m I had ?30 per month to live on.Now With savings I get no interest so I am like many other older savers are effectively paying for new home owners mortgages. I have lost >?90,000 since 2008.So NO I am NOT happy.Fox Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seabag Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Cash in Foxy, buy a small flat somewhere.Think of all that lovely equity, you must have easily about a 3/4 of million quid in that gaff of yours. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seabag Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 However, you must take the downturn on the chin FOXTER as you were one of the yes to Brexit voters.You and your ilk can't have the cake and eat it. So no more grumbling please, though BoJo is still sure you'll get your ?350million a week for the NHS, so that's great no?But as I as I said, you're sitting on a pile. Why not sell and cash in. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelharris Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 DulwichFox Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> When I had my first Mortgage 1980 ..?15,000,> interest rates were 15% and rose to 17% for a> short period. > Paying ?370 P/M Wages ?400 p/m I had ?30 per month> to live on.> > Now With savings I get no interest so I am like> many other older savers are effectively paying for> > new home owners mortgages. I have lost >?90,000> since 2008.> > So NO I am NOT happy.> > FoxAnd you've made, what, ?700,000+ since 1980? ?19k a year average. I'd say the glass is at least half full. And you're not paying for other people's mortgages, interest rates are interest rates which are determined by the world and domestic economic environment, they don't steal from you and give it to new mortgagees! Count your blessings, you had to pay a vast proportion of your income in mortgage payments, to buy your house now someone on an averageish income would need about three times their income every month to afford it Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah Blah Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 I agree with Seabag. Someone sitting in a home they bought decades ago is not in a poor position. And you should also consider yourself lucky to have savings too DF. Todays young people can neither save nor buy because of the cost of rents and then starting cost of property. We bought our home in 2001 and consider ourselves lucky, but as someone says above, we needed two salaries to do it. We have two children and have no idea how they are ever going to buy a home, and fully expect we will have to use our savings to help them. They again will be of the lucky few. The downturn in prices is the first in a very long time and is being attributed to a lack of overseas investors. Maybe that is one good impact from the Brexit vote. The housing market in London has been artificially inflated for decades and can't go on like that. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah Blah Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 rendelharris Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------Count> your blessings, you had to pay a vast proportion> of your income in mortgage payments, to buy your> house now someone on an averageish income would> need about three times their income every month to> afford itThe latest data now shows that average house prices are EIGHT times the average salary. Back in the early 80's, mortgages were I think restricted to 2.5 times salary. DF has nothing whatsoever to complain about. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/168629-curse-of-gentification/page/2/#findComment-1180276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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