flu vaccination offered by school

[yeknomyeknom]

I'm not saying I disagree with you or I agree with the other poster. Or vice versa. I am saying everyone is entitled to their view and that life is difficult enough without us berating eachother and pulling eachother down. You don't seem to be open to this fact and I'm sure the parents tuning into this thread would much rather it addressed the issues at hand so I am going to stop engaging with you now DulwichLondoner.

Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ? Anyone is entitled to say and think the Earth is

> flat. This doesn?t make it true.

>

> Just like someone is entitled to write here that

> the Earth is flat, I am entitled to write that it

> is unsubstantiated nonsense, and that there has

> been irrefutable evidence for ages that it?s not

> flat. This is not about debating, say, whether X

> or Y would be a better Prime Minister. This is

> about scientific truths.

>

> When someone draws inference from a handful of

> isolated an unrepresentative incidents (my

> unvaccinated kids are doing just fine) I am

> entitled to point out how and why this approach is

> wrong. Beg to differ? Great. Then explain why.

>

> Vaccines are more complex because individual

> choices affect the rest of society (herd

> immunity), and because a parent?s anti-scientific

> approach causes direct harm to helpless children.

> Individual rights are not absolute. You have the

> right to think that 70mph would be a better speed

> limit for urban areas, and are entitled to point

> out the merits of your case. You are not entitled

> to drive at 70mph in the city centre, not because

> you might get hurt (Darwinian selection) but

> because you might hurt other people. It?s the same

> with vaccines.

[DulwichLondoner]

So no one can ever be wrong because anything is a legitimate opinion?

So if someone says he thinks the Earth is flat do you say: ?I disagree but I respect your opinion? or do you say ?Well, you are wrong because undisputable evidence proves the contrary, and you have not proven that centuries of knowledge are wrong??

I?m off to making animal sacrifices to ensure a good harvest. It is my ?opinion? that this works, and everyone must respect it :)

[TE44]

Dulwich Londoner, I understand where your belief to do the right thing comes from, how do I know what I know, because science has told you so. I do not believe any conversation can arise from this stance. How do you know what you know? I

believe experts often battle over different opinions creating confusion which breeds a right or wrong attitude. How many people read in depth scientific reports and understand them, my experience hearing from family and friends who have made a different decision from me, is they felt it

was such a huge subject its overwhelmed them and

decided to go with having there children vaccinated as the worst side effects seemed rare and they were frightened.

Belief in making this choice for me cannot rule out a different sense of belief a balance of information you take from outside yourself and the feeling when you know something feels right or wrong personally for you. I have said this before

and it did not go down well on this forum. You can

look at the bigger picture and it can be simple or as complicated as you see it but for me it is

impossible to not feel what I believe.

[treehugger]

I agree wholeheartedly with DulwichLondoner. Those who refuse to have their children vaccinated because they "feel" or they "believe" are protected by the herd immunity of the majority of us who do vaccinate our children. If everyone did as they did we would be back to the days when thousands of children died or became disabled through measles, polio, diptheria etc. And yes, you can die from flu.

[TE44]

DulwichLondoner seeing things in a duality perspective,right or wrong for me is a very restricted view which does not leave room for understanding in between. On some subjects that are more simple mostly practical it would be easier to hold this view. Sorry I did not make myself clear in above post (bit late or early) whatever way you look at it. It felt refreshing to hear yhe parents on this thread that can see beyond the right or wrong outside of there personal choice.

[Saffron]

Everyone is of course entitled to an opinion. However, in the modern healthcare field, the opinions of experts are based on the balance of the available evidence, not solely on personal belief. Although this strategy is not infallible, it has dramatically and measurably improved public health.

This forum has very few limitations and is populated by a wide variety of intelligent and able posters who have a history of debating both passionately and diversely. I see no evidence that it is not an exellent place for progressive discussions on healthcare and other topics.

And long may it continue so.

[TE44]

Segregation divide is becoming rife in our society, the need to be right is attached to that in my view. I have no inclination to put my views across on here anymore, as its beginning to feel like groundhog day.

[charlie.gl]

Another perspective to include -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-41312200/measles-vaccine-i-cheated-my-daughter

[DulwichLondoner]

@TE44,

First of all the fact that parents mean well is totally and utterly meaningless. A well-meaning parent can still cause considerable harm. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, they say.

You talk as if these were some kind of generic philosophical beliefs, where everyone is entitled to an opinion and no one can really be proven right or wrong. It most certainly and categorically is not, far from it!

First of all, do you agree that single cases are irrelevant? Yes or no? If no, care to explain why? Like I said, I still struggle to understand why the statement ?my unvaccinated kids are doing fine? should be any more reasonable, relevant or representative than ?I let my kids do something really dangerous but they?re fine? or ?I played the lottery and have become a millionaire?.

There exists such things as scientific truths. In every field, there is debate and a lack of consensus on the most recent advancements, but, equally, there is consensus on some well-established theories, a consensus reached over the decades, analysing tons and tons of data that prove the very same thing. How to cure a very rare form of cancer may be an example of the former: different doctors may easily propose different treatments; vaccines clearly fall into the latter category.

They do so because they have been studied for decades, all over the world, on millions and millions of people. Studying a very rare disease is very difficult, also because there are few cases to study, and with few data points it?s always hard to conduct a thorough epidemiological study. Not so with vaccines.

You ask how I know what I know. That is how. You say that ?experts battle over different opinions? ; well, not on vaccines. Unless you want to include homeopathic doctors who quote newspaper articles and online comments from random people as their ?sources? in your definition of ?experts?. You beg to differ? Fine. Then please explain what experts battle over vaccines.

Can you possibly explain that the concept of herd immunity is wrong?

Can you possibly explain that vaccines have not contributed to a substantial increase in life expectancy and to the eradication of a number of previously deadly diseases?

[TE44]

What is meaningless to you does not make you right.

Nor make it any less meaningful to me.

I do not mean to be rude but I do not have any desire to even want to try to get you to understand where I

am coming from. I feel all these predictable arguments do not help people.

I think we have very much let go of being in touch with what we feel or our intuition, as we are informed what is right and wrong. This has encouraged people to think in a very judgemental

way, especially where others feelings of complexity feels simple for them. If it is a decision for you that does not involve your beliefs, fine, we all think differently. Where the intention to understand is genuine, people feel that. Where it js to prove you are right, sorry cant be bothered.

[Lula]

Dulwich Londoner ? I believe you are right and as you pointed out, if everyone ignored the modern advances in medicine and went the way of the anti-vaxxers then we would have a very different society.

Unfortunately, you are never going to convince people like TE44 to change their mind. People will always seek information that backs up their own beliefs ? while yours is based on proper medical studies; theirs is based on anecdotes and pseudoscience.

As you say, it's more than unfortunate that the anti-vaxxers decisions can have life-threatening consequences.

Sadly I think you have to agree to disagree.

[DulwichLondoner]

@TE44, Judgemental?

I am not judgmental towards those who hold different religious, philosophical or political views.

I am judgmental towards people who refuse well-established scientific truths.

I am judgmental towards the Flat Earth Society (it does exist, and no, it?s not a joke ? look it up).

I am judgmental towards creationists.

I am judgmental towards those who believe in homeopathy.

I am judgmental towards those who believe in chemtrails and other conspiracy theories.

I am judgmental towards those who are anti-vaccines.

@Lula, unfortunately you are right.

Like I said I am very libertarian in my approach ? not to mention a strong fan of the merits of Darwinian selection :)

My gripes are when:

a) These beliefs cause harm to the rest of society or to helpless children

b) Public money is wasted on any of this voodoo science

For example, the Flat Earth Society is totally harmless. The anti-vaccine movement is not.

[TE44]

https://youtu.be/K5BF0x354BI

This is quite an interesting scientific view,

[Saffron]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> https://youtu.be/K5BF0x354BI

>

> This is quite an interesting scientific view,

And here is another view, for balance...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanie_Seneff

[BlueWater]

I understand that the NHS is particularly concerned about the flu this winter as there are some powerful flu bugs going round this winter. There has been a v nasty outbreak in Australia where the number of cases has dramatically increased. Please think about how a decision not to have the flu vaccination could affect vulnerable children and older people in your community. Article on the Australia outbreak for info: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/world/australia/flu-vaccination-deaths.html?mcubz=0

[TE44]

Thanks saffron I absolutely agree that people should be looked at individually on each side.

There is a long list of Doctors and scientists who speak against vaccines and many health workers

who refuse themselves, although this is not so easy now in some trusts.

I agree conflict of interest is also something that comes up again and again, on both sides.

I do believe it is harder for people working in the industry to speak up, as is seen in the time it takes to act when someone whistleblows. We have seen top consecutives in CDC

accused with involvement of cover ups, moving into management of pharmaceutical companies.

I understand and sympathise with new parents who

are struggling to decide what is best for there children. Each argument, when it becomes personal

with parents eg your child can threaten my child, can be seen from both sides, although I have concerns for the same people, who are susceptible to picking up disease. I am aware there is a warning to not have contact with certain vulnerable people but the reality of putting that into practice, especially in London. We have the

same concerns I have made a choice, my children have and will make a choice where its very possible theres will differ from mine. It is easy to make assumptions about people who see things you cannot understand, keeping things personal when speaking about a very large and complicated system is difficult for me because although it is personal, outside of that the borders become more intermingled the more information you learn. Its good to learn from one another but not from a stance of guilty or innocent.

[TE44]

Bluewater, it takes me a long time to type, my post above was not in response to yours. I think there is a responsibility whether vaccinated or not to be aware of vulnerable people. There is advice given out by health workers administering vaccines, due to shedding of the vaccine. I think most people would keep there children at home if they were ill and would avoid anyone who is vulnerable. Fluenz tetra should protect from 4 strains, although not very effectively, making it a vaccine that if you believed in herd immunity, scientifically this vaccine would not achieve that even if everyone but the vulnerable, who can't have it, was vaccinated.There are many strains of influenza. It worries me different strains are

being put together which are being shed. I do not

blame parents who vaccinate but below is maybe something to consider, although a bit scientific.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_shift

Antigenic shift/drift

[DulwichLondoner]

TE44 Wrote:

> There is a long list of Doctors and scientists who

> speak against vaccines

No, there isn't. Like I said, the efficacy of vaccines has been a well-established scientific truth for a long time.

Beg to differ? Fine. Could you then please be so kind as to share this "long list"?

It is, after all, remarkable that the one and only "scientist" you have managed to quote so far against vaccines is a computer scientist (i.e. from an entirely different field!) who has "published" in "low-impact, open-access journals". Do you even know what low-impact, open access means? Look it up. Hint: not particularly reputable nor reliable. (To be clear: open access isn't necessarily bad, but predatory open access journals do exist).

It's a bit like asking what scientist believes the Earth is flat, and quoting a linguist who has "published" something on his blog!

Let me try again: how many SCIENTISTS share your "views" against vaccines?

[TE44]

http://www.truthlibrary.info/articles/vaccines/list-of-doctors-and-scientists-who-oppose-and-have-testified-that-vaccines-are-not-safe/

[DulwichLondoner]

@TE44, most of your links point to unavailable youtube videos. I'm sure it was the censorship of powerful multinationals, even though vaccines are cheap (UNICEF says it costs a few dollars to immunise a child in developing countries, from memory) and Big Pharma would make more money treating those who caught a disease because they had not been vaccinated.

What seems glaring because of its omission, though, is any kind of through epidemiological study.

See, the kind of sources supporters of a given argument quote speaks volumes about their reliability; in this thread we have seen links to a homeopath who quotes random comments from people on the internet and random newspaper articles, your link to the delusions of a computer scientist who "published" rants against vaccines in low-impact open access journals, and now these links.

This is getting boring. Surely googling is not too difficult? Or, wait, maybe it is, because reliable sources against vaccines simply do NOT exist...?

[DulwichLondoner]

Here is a list of creationist scientists: https://creation.com/creation-scientists

The fact that some people believe it doesn't make it true. There is no evidence to support their argument, and 99% of the scientific community has proven why they are wrong.

Same with vaccines. It's a big world out there. Circa 7.5 billion people. Finding a few people that support some unfounded theory is not hard. Finding evidence for it, and finding support in the scientific community, that's what's hard. And for a reason.

[TE44]

It's for people to make there own mind up, as I posted earlier its best to have a good look, it is very difficult for those who work in science to stand against the syatem. I did just google these names, I did not click on to any on the link, although I recognised some of the names, I would rather look at people individualy, hear what there saying, then check independently from them, as i am rather suspicious of both sides. I could not put them all together and make an assumption on them as a group. Please understand I am past seeing this as right or wrong in conversation.

Edited to say I do not understand your link,

[DulwichLondoner]

@TE44, you have not even explained why YOU are against.

Because of a gut feeling?

Because you think the risks outweigh the benefits? How and why?

Because an MIT computer scientist said so?

Because a homeopathic ?doctor? said so?

Not only do I disagree ? I completely fail to understand what your thought process is!

[TE44]

As I said at the beginning of this thread along with others I do not want to get into a debate but here I am. I have written enough over the years on this forum, and unlike you DL I would rather understand myself than try to work out someone elses thought process, it is nothing to do with religion to see connected, I feel isolating a certain part ( thought process) feels very restricting for me) sorry but I feel it's time to agree to differ, as another poster suggested earlier.

[JRJ]

I do not wish to insult anyone, although I do wish that people would be a bit more discerning in their choices of evidence.

I would like to add that I am a healthcare professional and have many vulnerable, immunocompromised patients. I have seen people die and have other serious consequences from usually-mild infectious diseases. Herd immunity (as mentioned above) is a real concept, and tbh I think less of people who feel that somehow they don't need to play their part in a caring society. I have also seen young, fit, "healthy" people end up ventilated in intensive care from flu.

The UK flu vaccine doesn't cover every strain. It certainly won't be perfect, but it's still a bit too early to know whether it will be 'good' or not - the UK uses the best available info about which strains to target. Australia has had a bad flu winter, and although their vaccine (which won't be the same as ours) hasn't been great, it has offered some protection.

I get a vaccine through work. My OH and daughter will be getting one wherever we can.