Denmark Hill to London Bridge Closure

[Frisco]

"You are an angry soul. Do try and let it go."

Not at all Mo, probably far less angry than you are patronising.

"Channel it toward Network Rail?"

Surprisingly, that's more or less what I was doing when I described their proposal as stupid, although this was expressed more in disbelief than anger.

[SeanMacGabhann]

From postings on here generally I wouldn't call Frisco and angry soul, although clearly cares about this issue, and I can see why

From postings on here Maurice I would say you do enjoy stirring things rather too much

HOWEVER

There is actually merit in Maurice's advice to try and pull the facts together rather than let emotion be the main card.

Frisco: I doubt Mo is going to bother contacting Network Rail or anybody else as he doesn't feel as strongly as many others on the subject but that shouldn't derail you from your goal. Good luck

[Frisco]

"I doubt Mo is going to bother contacting Network Rail or anybody else"

It's ok, I'd already concluded that. I do know the term 'don't feed the trolls', but anyone can temporarily forget that when they get ANGRY! ;-)

[mikeb]

So what arguments can be made to NR?

* Saying that Denmark Hill has multiple bus services to London Bridge that could be used instead ignores the fact that congestion renders these pretty useless for all but the most leisurely traveller, even though Denmark Hill is firmly within zone 2. TfL's website suggests that getting to London Bridge by bus from Denmark Hill (4 miles) at 8am would take 45-52 minutes (average of less then 5mph). A train from Dartford to London Bridge (18 miles) at the same time takes 31-45 minutes.

* The problem seems to be short platforms at Clapham High St and Wandsworth Rd - I'm sure it's fairly common to hear announcements on trains saying "due to short platforms, the doors in the last carriage will not open". Couldn't that work here?

* I think the line would be used even more if it appeared on the Tube Map like the North London line (not sure what is the minimum frequency required for this)

* Any local regeneration arguments? or environmental e.g. not encouraging further ribbon development in Kent?

[Maurice]

Splendid we're all agreed.

You'd be surprised at my community spirit and contribution. There was a time dear boys when Denmark Hill Station's beautiful period features were slated for demolition. I can't give myself a lot of credit individually but collective efforts prevailed.

Oh my. I never wanted to be part of the 'in my day' generation.

[Frisco]

* I think it's just as important to mention the intermediate stations too, rather than concentrating on the ends of the route. I would also make sense to press the point about the integration of public transport, and that this action undermines that. I also wonder if approaching the Mayor's office would be useful. It's hard to imagine that no one there has given any thought to this route, perhaps developing something similar to what's happened to the North London Line.

* It's right that there is the option of using "due to short platforms, the doors in the last carriage will not open" announcements. They do work elsewhere.

* I agree, it does suffer from a lack of publicity. People don't seem to know about it, but them maybe there hasn't been any incentive to market the route, if it's been the intention to close it.

[Mark]

Good to see this petition (a worthwhile one) has got 595 signatures on it, more would be better I think

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/keep-the-south-london-line-link-at-denmark-hill.html

[Quaywe]

We've created a monster!!! Keep signing! (tu)

[dc]

King's College Hospital has just sent out an email to its staff and members which includes a link to the petition. The link is also on Harriet Harman's website as well as Tessa's and Cllr Fiona Colley's.

More info from her on campaigning activity at the station itself here: Cllr Fiona Colley

Current count: 705

[AllforNun]

Maybe there are some long range politics at play here. Push the Tram into peckham - cheap alternative to any extended tube links. House price rises in London mean that people will be moving further into the South East and Kent. So instead of investing in the infrastructure, we will rob from Peter to pay for Paul or whatever the saying is.

Meanwhile the government can get brand new offices for itself all over whitehall and the bankside, built with speed and efficiency. The foreign office, the Major of londons offices, new MI5 + MI6 etc etc. We should have stuck them out in Kent and they could have all commuted the other way!

[Alan Dale]

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/keep-the-south-london-line-link-at-denmark-hill/signatures.html

Almost 100 signatures. Great stuff.

That and the fantastic news that the terrace on Windsor Walk is on the verge of being restored to its former glory:

http://www.driversjonas.com/uk.aspx?doc=24046

Things are looking very positive for the area.

[Maurice]

I agree 1000 signatures is a good result (what's that four train carriages?) - do remember it is one part of a bigger fight just to maintain the status quo. It's hardly a 'very positive' step forward. At best, it is a good start toward not letting things worsen.

Windsor Walk is a result. Years of hard work have finally paid off...

[Alan Dale]

The petition includes reference to ELL and is not merely about maintaining the status quo.

[Frisco]

"do remember it is one part of a bigger fight just to maintain the status quo. It's hardly a 'very positive' step forward. At best, it is a good start toward not letting things worsen."

On the contrary, my argument has been that Network Rail shouldn't be taking actions (the closure of this route) for short term gain, just before rail commuter routes will pass to the management of the Mayor and TfL, which could well undermine any future opportunity for developing an integrated route. It is not about maintaining the status quo at all. For me it's about not undermining the existing customer base and future development, because that would be a stupid and shortsighted thing to do.

[mikeb]

Just a reminder that the closing date for comments on Network Rail's proposals is 26 October. Comments can be sent by email to [email protected]. The consultation document is on the Network Rail website.

[downsouth]

1130 signatures.

[Alan Dale]

Does it have to be submitted by someone to someone? EDKiwi started it- Ed do you know what you have to do with it?

[Maurice]

Check with Network Rail. I'm sure they'll tell you what to do with it.

[Quaywe]

Last chance to sign today: Online petition - Keep the South London Line link at Denmark Hill

[Quaywe]

PS - I'll be submitting the petition to Network Rail at 12pm.

[Quaywe]

Thanks to all for their support. We received 1216 signatures in the end. A very good response.

[Alan Dale]

Well done Edkiwi and thanks.

[downsouth]

Yes, that's a sterling effort.

[Alan Dale]

But it may be in vain.

Here is the latest official response from Network Rail:

Should the RUS proposals be taken forward in full, Denmark Hill will be served by more trains than today, providing a wider range of journey opportunities.

The main issue affecting Denmark Hill is the future of direct services to London Bridge. The present South London Line service from Victoria to London Bridge is unlikely to be able to continue in its present form. This is because:

? The lengthening of platforms at Battersea Park to accommodate 10-car trains may require the junction there to be severed

? The loss of three terminating platforms at London Bridge Low Level, brought about by Thameslink construction, will reduce the number of trains which can terminate there. The South London Line service is, by a long way, the least heavily used of all the services which currently use the Low Level station. It will not be possible to divert it to Charing Cross without further diminishing the available capacity at London Bridge ? even if there were sufficient capacity at Charing Cross. The RUS proposes to resolve this by calling for the early implementation of the East London Line Phase 2 extension. This would enable the Victoria to London Bridge service to be withdrawn, and to be replaced with:

? A new 2 trains-per-hour service to Victoria, coming from the direction of Nunhead, and calling at Denmark Hill, Clapham High Street, Wandsworth Road and Victoria (Eastern)

? A new 4 trains-per-hour service from the East London Line to Clapham Junction, calling at Queens Road Peckham, Peckham Rye, Denmark

Hill, Clapham High Street, Wandsworth Road and Clapham Junction. For those people wishing to travel to London Bridge, this proposal replaces a 2 trains-per-hour direct service with a 4 trains-per-hour service requiring one same-platform interchange (at either Peckham Rye or Queens Road Peckham).

For those people travelling to Victoria, there is no proposed alteration in frequency of service and it is likely that peak-time trains will be lengthened from their current 2 or 4 cars.

For those travelling to Blackfriars, there is no proposed alteration in frequency of service. The new Blackfriars station, with an entrance on the south side of the river, may for several people provide a quicker and more attractive means of reaching the South Bank than travelling via London Bridge.

For those who travel via London Bridge to Docklands, the East London Line would provide a quicker and more frequent alternative via Canada Water.

For those who travel to or via Clapham Junction, the East London Line would provide a direct and more frequent service than at present. If the proposed Airtrack scheme is implemented, which would provide a direct service from Clapham Junction to Heathrow Terminal 5, it would then be possible to reach the airport without travelling through central London.

[Maurice]

As I've said on this thread before, there is a very good case (on paper) for them doing this. Emotional responses about change were bound to be confronted with logical rationale. Network Rail didn't just decide to do this because they hate Denmark Hill. There is a sound business case. The 'fight' to stop it, needs to be fought against this with equally sound counter arguments, which will be very difficult to articulate. Hospital services are the best.