Aircraft noise - have your say...

[SplendidLikePeckham]

well this debate has certainly rumbled along like an early morning 747 since I started this thread....

Just to point out to Fazer, the Early Morning Respite Trials, the link to which you posted, were in fact tried out last year, and generally made the situation in our part of London worse - creating as HACAN put it, a 'noise corridor' over Brockley, parts of East Dulwich and Peckham. By avoiding the zones marked on the map, the planes actually flew more frequently over us instead. There was a fair amount of press about this and thankfully Heathrow say they don't plan to reintroduce them. So I wouldn't recommend calling for their return!

The e-petition looks like a good idea though.

And as far as glazing/shutters go, we installed secondary glazing, (different to double glazing) using acoustic glass and installed by City Sound. It ain't cheap, and you can still hear some of the planes, but they are a darn sight quieter now.

Part of the problem here is the amount of Victorian housing stock often fitted with thin single glazed panes, which offer chuff all sound insulation..

and two or three days of easterly winds are forecast, so there won't be any early morning arrivals for a while - happy sleeps everyone!

[natsw]

I realise the data suggests nothing has changed but I've lived in Se21 for three and a half years and like others on here I've noticed a marked increase in flight noise over the last few months - this morning was a particular low as I was awoken when the first planes came over. I used to live in Windsor and when I moved here I noticed how much quieter it was. But lately the roar of the planes seems to have gotten much worse. At first I thought it was down to weather conditions/cloud cover effecting the way the noise travels but I have realised that the weather seems to make no difference. I actually came onto the forum looking for discussions on this issue and despite what the data seems to "prove" I am somewhat gratified to see I'm not the only person noticing more noise.

[*Bob*]

On the one hand, you have the data.

On the other hand, you have you - and your response to the noise.

One is quantifiable and objective; the other is unquantifiable and subjective.

To paraphrase Mr Holmes: Once you remove the impossible (flights are lower - they aren't; engines are noisier; they aren't; flight paths have changed - they haven't (and least not for a long time and brief trial notwithstanding), flights are more frequent - marginally but negligible..

Once you have removed these, then what remains must be the truth. And the truth must be that it is you and your response to noise which has changed.

If you can accept this, then you will start to notice the aircraft noise less.

If you can't, you will only notice the (same) noise more and more and drive yourself crackers.

[fabfor]

Also quantifiable and objective:

1. It disturbs people; especially the 4.30am start!

2. It is harmful to health (links already posted);

3. It's going to get worse (read the news).

I'm happy for you if you're not disturbed by it; this thread is therefore clearly not for you then. Elementary, my dear?!

[*Bob*]

I never said I wasn't disturbed by it.

Indeed, since I've spent a decade recording musical instruments through microphones with only single glazed windows between me and 'outside noise', you could say I am more affected by it than most. I'm certainly more objectively conscious of it than most - because sometimes it affects what I do all day.

My point has never been that it doesn't disturb people; that some might suffer ill effects; that it might get worse in the future - my point is that it has not suddenly 'got worse' either this month, over the last three months, or indeed the last five years. That's all I've ever said.

[fabfor]

It's truly surprising that you're disturbed by this! Apologies for assuming otherwise.

We've had so many people advising us to "Get over it!" and your post seemed to fit into that bracket. (When did empathy die so unashamedly?)

Please, everyone, consider signing the e-petition (if you haven't already done so).

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47098

[StraferJack]

whoooosh

[StraferJack]

Why would he sign the petition if he didn't think the problem was getting worse?

He is saying it disturbs him but, without saying "get over it", he is also saying it is what it is, it isn't getting worse so he get's on with his life and suggests others might be better advised to do the same

[El Pibe]

I'm genuinely curious as to what the alternatives are to getting over it. Seriously.

There was a trial, it made things worse.

There could be another trial but it'll always essentally be 'let someone else have it'

We could alternate routes, but it seems to me that it wouldn't make much difference as it's the times it happens that drive people crackers, the days it doesn't go unnoticed.

So .. genuinely .. what's being proposed within our power to do anything?

[*Bob*]

Calls to ban early morning landings, Boris Island or shift the approach so someone else gets it up the rectum for a change - are cloud cuckoo. Heathrow is THE airport are we are on THE approach.

The only suggestion I've seen anywhere that a) might make sense and b) might happen - is to allow aircraft to come in at a steeper glide angle than they currently do (like the City ones do in their dive-bomber like approach) - at least until they reach the last five miles or so (some of the bigger ones would have to level out to a shallower angle by then anyway)

Steeper angle would mean the 'planes are higher for longer - and would make a noticeable difference to us this far out from Heathrow. Currently Heathrow is 3? and City 5.5?. So, 20 miles out or whatever we are.. anyone remember their trig? Work it out..

However, on the downside, I suspect steeper glide angle would be used by airlines as a means of trying to get more night flights through.

[El Pibe]

plus, given that new quiet engines are louder than concorde, it's the simple existence of sound rather than a qualatitive difference that is at issue.

[El Pibe]

foxes, I mean seriously, they're loud!!!!!

[*Bob*]

Not the new foxes. They're much quieter.

[????]

well, well, *Bob* a bit of a plane anorak, who'd of thunk it.

[fabfor]

When did the 4.30am flights start?

[*Bob*]

At least 15 years for sure; beyond that, I couldn't say.

[fabfor]

Thanks *bob*.

FYI, here's the epetition link again:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47098

[SplendidLikePeckham]

This looks bad....

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/full-details-of-heathrow-night-flight-plans-dug-up-by-campaigners-9125613.html?origin=internalSearch

The problem as I see it is that we don't really benefit from runway alteration. Planes for both runways fly over East Dulwich and Peckham so (and I'm happy for someone to try and convince me otherwise) the result in our part of town will be a doubling of flights between 5 and 6am. At least those further west will 'benefit' from a weeks respite - we won't.

It ties into the myth that Heathrow flight noise is just a West London problem. It isn't.

[*Bob*]

Article is a little confused: there aren't any stacks over West London (??) - they're further out than that. But anyway - it's certainly (another) effort by Heathrow to try and alleviate a continual headache (for them): loads of aircraft having to wait until 6am and then a mad scramble to land.

No real benefit to runway alteration for us, no - aircraft set to land on the northern runway can come from either the north or south stacks I think. (Unless the proposal also means stacks will alternate between north and south depending on runway in use - but I don't see how that can be likely or even possible).

Ultimately you have to pick your battles. Demands for changes to the longstanding status quo won't get anywhere. Complaints against changes to it stand a chance (see previous abandoned trial).

[fabfor]

So, there we have it. Hidden away in the report is their intention to start by (more than) doubling the number of flights before 6am! Unbelievable!

Experience has taught me to be wary of anyone who advises me to settle for poison because good food isn't obtainable- and have no doubts about it, early morning flights will lead to more deaths.

From the standard article:Mr Govindia added: ?I don?t think the Airports Commission has done enough work on noise to understand the problems of people under the flightpath. This council has fought for years for a night flights ban. We?ve challenged the current scheme in the courts. One arrival before 6am is one too many. Our community is entitled to a decent night?s sleep.?

Amen:one arrival before 6am is one too many! We are entitled to a decent night's sleep. That says it all.

Don't give up the Fight!

Start by signing the petition (link above) and ask others to sign too.

[Mustard]

SplendidLikePeckham Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> well this debate has certainly rumbled along like

> an early morning 747 since I started this

> thread....

> Just to point out to Fazer, the Early Morning

> Respite Trials, the link to which you posted, were

> in fact tried out last year, and generally made

> the situation in our part of London worse -

> creating as HACAN put it, a 'noise corridor' over

> Brockley, parts of East Dulwich and Peckham. By

> avoiding the zones marked on the map, the planes

> actually flew more frequently over us instead.

> There was a fair amount of press about this and

> thankfully Heathrow say they don't plan to

> reintroduce them. So I wouldn't recommend calling

> for their return!

>

> The e-petition looks like a good idea though.

>

> And as far as glazing/shutters go, we installed

> secondary glazing, (different to double glazing)

> using acoustic glass and installed by City Sound.

> It ain't cheap, and you can still hear some of the

> planes, but they are a darn sight quieter now.

> Part of the problem here is the amount of

> Victorian housing stock often fitted with thin

> single glazed panes, which offer chuff all sound

> insulation..

>

> and two or three days of easterly winds are

> forecast, so there won't be any early morning

> arrivals for a while - happy sleeps everyone!

Did you have single pane glass and then install the secondary glazing? Does your secondary glazing open?

[Burbage]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ultimately you have to pick your battles. Demands

> for changes to the longstanding status quo won't

> get anywhere. Complaints against changes to it

> stand a chance (see previous abandoned trial).

That depends on what, exactly, the status quo is.

I may be wrong, and it may just be prevailing winds and so on, but it seems many more planes are turning overhead than used to be the case and, at least to my ears, a plane turning sounds much louder (possibly because the engines are going at different rates, but noise seems to 'spill' downward and the change in pitch doesn't help).

There again, that might just be a return to normal after the trials last year, and I'd forgotten how bad it was. But El Pibe is right about the planes getting louder in general - the engines may be getting quieter per unit of thrust, but the planes have been getting bigger.

[healey]

I must admit to being somewhat puzzled by these complaints. I live directly under the flightpath and am oblivious to it.

I do honestly wonder if it's possible for people to work themselves into an obsessive state and train themselves into hyper-sensitivity.

In any case, the chance of things changing to suit the needs of anyone in East Dulwich is zero.

[fabfor]

I can sleep happily with loud reggae music blasting nearby but I accept that some people might be disturbed by that - different folks, different strokes.

Derogatory labels are not called for, just sensible rules like not after midnight and not before 6am.

[Jah Lush]

Aircraft noise has never bothered me. I fail to understand how it could wake anyone. I don't hear it. I think anyone bothered by it must be very light sleepers indeed. It's not like we live near an airport. I sleep well. The only thing that wakes me during the night is my bladder.