Aircraft noise - have your say...

[fazer71]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> The ?facts? (that recorded flights have not got

> very much more frequent) suggest that the

> perception that some have that they have done so,

> suggests that it is as much ?in the eye of the

> beholder? as a matter of observable evidence.

Maybe there is no increase in flights.

Only an increase in flights further south over ED.

>

> I (and I suspect many of those taking the same

> position as I do) do not believe that those

> ?suffering? are either inventing or exaggerating

> their levels of anxiety about the noise. For you

> the problem is entirely real.

Yep it?s 100 % real I?ve live here for over 40 years and it?s never been like this.

>

> What we are saying, however, is that it may be

> more effective to adjust your own perceptions than

> to think you will be able to get all night flights

> banned from Heathrow or Gatwick (which would be

> your only reasonable end-game ? to get them

Gatwick flights do not go over ED London City Airport flights only go over ED when the wind is Easterly.

> diverted to fly elsewhere than over ED is to

> selfishly try to shift your problem to someone

> else?s shoulders). I think that if night flights

The people who have had the flight for the last 40 years no longer have them WE have them NOW !

I moved here when there was no aircraft noise NOW for the last 18-24 months I find myself on the flight path HOW WHY ????

> were banned you would then start to find day-time

> flights intolerable also. You live in a major

> economic global hub city ? with all the benefits

> that brings as regards job prospects, quality of

> cultural life etc. etc. It requires travellers

> (business and pleasure) to operate successfully.

> With that benefit may come penalties.

In ED we lived in peace why are we suddenly along with the residents of BROCKLEY now suffering?

>

> There are numbers of effective strategies (CBT,

> Mindfulness etc.) which would help you in

> adjusting ? as those of us without your problems

> have - to the annoyance of the noise. Sometimes it

> is possible to change the world, sometimes it may

> be more realistic to change yourself.

The FIX is to deal with the cause NOT the impact ?

Only a Moron would deal with the impact before dealing with the cause.

Heathrow Air Traffic Control should put the flight path back over the Thames where is has been since the 1970?s until 2012...

[george74]

We live in one of the busiest cities in the world, and yet we are complaining about a few flights?? How else are people supposed to travel here? I suggest moving to the country would solve any issues with noise.

[fazer71]

george74 Wrote:

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> We live in one of the busiest cities in the world,

> and yet we are complaining about a few flights??

> How else are people supposed to travel here? I

> suggest moving to the country would solve any

> issues with noise.

Moronic poster....

If you can' be bothered to read the thread ????

Obviously if you buy in an area which has always been on the flight path then sure.

But please don't be a moron.

It's not a few flights.

It's one every couple of minutes.

Starting at 4.30 am.

Parts of East Dulwich Dulwich Village Forest Hill Brockley Honor Oak in SE London have never experienced the noise it's recent and it's getting worst.

Historically you could walk in Dulwich Park or on Peckham Rye and there was no aircraft noise NOW it's constant.

Do you honestly think people in Brockley are having meetings with Heathrow for the fun of it ?

NO it's because the situation has changed and changed dramatically.

[edcam]

The problem here is definitely perception. Odd that many have lived here for many years and aren't noticing any difference and some have. It's clear that this is a real problem for some posters but also clear that many genuinely don't think anything has changed and don't see that there is a problem.

[Otta]

I think the problem is some posters calling anyone that disagrees with them a moron.

[fazer71]

Otta Wrote:

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> I think the problem is some posters calling anyone

> that disagrees with them a moron.

^ moronic.

So morons who think moving to the country side after 40 years of peace.

because Heathrow have decided to move the flight path over their homes is a really good idea.....

FFS IF that isn't moronic WTF is ?

[Otta]

Have you considered anger management? A lot of things have changed in the last 40 years funnily enough. Some good, some bad.

Where would you have the planes fly? I know you've said the thames, but the thames not being particularly wide, I imagine that would then disturb other people. Perhaps they feel that after 40 years it's about time you had a turn.

[edcam]

fazer - your response to my post above and similar insults directed at others do suggest a degree of irrationality.

[fazer71]

Otta Wrote:

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> Have you considered anger management? A lot of

> things have changed in the last 40 years funnily

> enough. Some good, some bad.

>

> Where would you have the planes fly? I know you've

> said the thames, but the thames not being

> particularly wide, I imagine that would then

> disturb other people. Perhaps they feel that after

> 40 years it's about time you had a turn.

More moronic nesssss Moronic .... laughable idiotic definitely.

So it's my turn now ?

I bought in a quiet area but nooooooooooooo I now deserve from one year to the next to be blighted by aircraft noise?

You know before I was woken up at 4.30am every morning I had no anger I was pretty relaxed!

Those people who lived along the Thames under the flight path knew what they had they always had the noise they bought in the knowledge it was part of their lives if they didn't want it they would never have bought there.

What we now have in East Dulwich and Brockley etc is a motorway in the sky above our heads.

A new motorway for aircraft making more noise than car or lorries.

A motorway which wakes you up at 4.30am with a noise that's akin to being inside a blast furnace only with added screech....

If they were planning a motorway at the end of your road you'd be happy with that would you???

Morons everywhere adopting the ostrich position.

[Otta]

I doubt they'd plan a motorway at the end of my road to be honest.

But seeing your responses just makes me hope they add a few extra flights to the schedule. Sleep tight.

[Lowlander]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> None of these links state that CBT is effective in

> eliminating sensitivity to noise.

>

> If you believe that you have a clinical

> intolerance to noise then there are drug therapies

> which may help you by reducing sensitivity -

> perhaps amitryptoline (which is also a mild

> specific against anxiety) - but then all noise and

> not just that of aircraft should trigger this. If

> your intolernace to noise is a psychological

> response to a specific source of noise then it may

> form part of an anxiety spectrum, in which case

> CBT can certainly be effective. It may also

> possibly belong to an OCD spectrum (you are unable

> to 'tidy' the noise away) - again CBT can address

> some of these issues. It may also be a focus for a

> depressive illness - again CBT can help here.

>

> So - if you are intolerant (compared with others)

> to all noise sources over a particular Db then I

> weould suggest looking towards drug therapy - if a

> specific set of noises (which do not impact all

> others exposed to the same stimuulus) is your

> problem it does suggest that a psychological

> remedy may be more useful for you.

Right...so you're saying that anyone affected by noise (traffic, neighbours, air planes, children...) should take drugs or seek counselling? So for instance, you'd be happy for me to come to your house, sit by your bed and keep you awake all night; and all you need to do is pop a few pills or seek some counselling to recover?

[uncleglen]

It never ceases to amaze me that we are continually being nagged at to save the planet,not using plastic bags, conserve fuel, use a bike etc. when the willy-nilly use of aeroplanes is just undoing any efforts that people make to address the unsustainable fuel problem. The whole 'green' movement is probably a conspiracy by the aviation industry to preserve their little niche in the world.

Expecting people to suffer the uncontrolled increase in air traffic is totally unreasonable- we could make a start by refusing to purchase, for example, coriander from Kenya and fruit from South america- just think of their carbon footprints.

And expecting people to take anti-anxiety medication is also unreasonable- but I believe that GPs have been instructed to dish out these pills because there is a 3 month waiting list for CBT and we all have to be kept in work whatever the cost to our own well-being.

[hpsaucey]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> It never ceases to amaze me that we are

> continually being nagged at to save the planet,not

> using plastic bags, conserve fuel, use a bike etc.

> when the willy-nilly use of aeroplanes is just

> undoing any efforts that people make to address

> the unsustainable fuel problem. The whole 'green'

> movement is probably a conspiracy by the aviation

> industry to preserve their little niche in the

> world.

> Expecting people to suffer the uncontrolled

> increase in air traffic is totally unreasonable-

> we could make a start by refusing to purchase, for

> example, coriander from Kenya and fruit from South

> america- just think of their carbon footprints.

> And expecting people to take anti-anxiety

> medication is also unreasonable- but I believe

> that GPs have been instructed to dish out these

> pills because there is a 3 month waiting list for

> CBT and we all have to be kept in work whatever

> the cost to our own well-being.

Hear hear!

[edcam]

I don't like coriander, so am happy to support that bit.

[fl0wer]

Useful news here about a meeting between the various groups [for and against] airport expansion and noise regulation, who are now calling for a change in legislation and the appointment of an Ombudsman.

You might like to add comments to the thread beneath this article. They will be read by a wider group than here on the EDF.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/heathrow-critics-supporters-independent-ombudsman-airport-noise

Here is a copy of the actual letter, so you can see its signatories:

____________________________________________________________________

Air travel, and the aircraft noise that accompanies it, have become an integral part of modern life, but perceptions of aircraft noise vary greatly, mainly depending on where it is experienced.

For most people, who do not live near to a major airport, air travel is exclusively defined in terms of the considerable economic or social benefits that it brings. On the other hand, for those who live near major airports, aircraft noise can be an imposition. The time has come to adopt a fresh approach, to restore trust and give people the confidence that their legitimate grievances are being addressed.

We believe that the establishment of an independent aircraft noise ombudsman, set up at arm's length from government and the industry, could play a fundamental role in further establishing trust and confidence, thus bringing about a fair and reasonable balance between increasing demand for flights and noise control.

Building on the common ground and goodwill built up among the interested parties, the ombudsman would collaborate with all of them to report on noise in an open, transparent and intelligible manner, and to deal with noise limitation problems fairly and sustainably.

We therefore call on the government and politicians of all colours to work collaboratively with all stakeholders on designing, and thereafter the early establishment of, an independent aircraft noise ombudsman to further enhance and protect the welfare of people living near airports.

Stephen Alambritis leader, Merton council

David Amess MP Con, Southend West

Tony Arbour AM Richmond, Kingston and Hounslow

Jennette Arnold AM Hackney, Islington and Waltham Forest

Bob Blackman MP Harrow East

Mark Boleat chair, policy and resources committee, City of London Corporation

David Brazier cabinet member for transport and environment, Kent county council

Robert Buckland MP Con, South Swindon

Sir Steve Bullock Mayor of Lewisham

Muhammed Butt Leader, Brent council

Jim Cunningham MP Lab, Coventry South

Tom Copley AM London-wide

Brenda Dean Lab, House of Lords

Andrew Dismore AM, Barnet and Camden

Jim Dobbin MP Lab, Heywood and Middleton

Len Duvall AM leader of Labour group, Greenwich and Lewisham

Roger Evans AM deputy chairman of the London Assembly, Havering and Redbridge

Stephen Fry chief executive, Hounslow Chamber of Commerce

Zac Goldsmith MP Con, Richmond Park

Robert Gray director, Back Heathrow

Rt Hon Sir Alan Haselhurst MP Con, Saffron Walden

Gavin Hayes director, Let Britain Fly

Dr Julian Huppert MP Lib Dem, Cambridge

Darren Johnson AM chair of the London Assembly

Jenny Jones AM leader, Green Group at the London Assembly

Stephen Joseph chief executive, Campaign for Better Transport

David Lammy MP Lab, Tottenham

Mike Langan chair, Hillingdon Chamber of Commerce

Lisa Lavia managing director, Noise Abatement Society

Caroline Lucas MP Green, Brighton Pavilion

Caroline Nokes MP Con, Romsey and Southampton North

Steve O'Connell AM Croydon and Sutton

Lib Peck leader, Lambeth council

Roger Reed deputy leader, South Buckinghamshire district council

Philippa Roe leader, Westminster city council

Ben Rogers, director, Centre for London

Andrew Rosindell MP Con, Romford

Sir Bob Russell MP Lib Dem, Colchester

Dr Onkar Sahota AM Ealing and Hillingdon

Valerie Shawcross AM Lambeth and Southwark

Henry Smith MP Con, Crawley

Nicholas Soames MP Con, Mid Sussex

John Stewart chair, Heathrow Association for the Control of Aircraft Noise

Jeremy Taylor chief executive, Gatwick Diamond Business

Baroness Valentine chief executive, London First

Joan Walley MP Lab Stoke-on-Trent North

Tim Yeo MP Con, South Suffolk

Professor Xin Zhang professor of aircraft engineering, University of Southampton

__________________________________________________________________________________

[fazer71]

This morning.

Heathrow on easterly landing operations nice and quiet.

Morons

Here's an example...

Normal person:

"I've got a pounding headache"

Moron:

"no you haven't"

Normal person:

"yes I have it's really bad constant pounding"

Moron:

"no you're imagining it you're fine"

Normal person:

"no I've had a headache before and I tool pain killers and it went away"

Moron:

"you should take pain killers all the time that way you'll never have a headache"

Normal person:

"you're a moron"

[edcam]

Looks like someone woke up with headache.

[StraferJack]

he got the spelling of moron wrong in the first line too

[StraferJack]

of course the analogy doesn't work anyway does it - anyone with a headache has a headache.

Living in East Dulwich, (or even same street) most people can hear the aircraft, it just doesn't bother them to the same extent. That's substantially different

[Penguin68]

Just for the record, I was advocating pharmaceutical intervention only for someone with a clinical hypersensitivity to external stimulus. This is most commonly found during migraine attacks - as a (thank goodness almost former) migraineur I was peculiarly sensitive to light and to scent (not, thank goodness, to sound) and when I had a migraine I would find these stimuli almost intolerable. I know that others have a sound sensitivity when they have migraines. I have heard of people with continuing touch hypersensitivity.

Regarding particular stimuli problematical (specific sounds, rather than sound in general) does not suggest clinical hypersensitivity ? when these sounds are causing people high levels of anxiety or disquiet (but these levels are not mirrored in all exposed to these stimuli) then there may be a psychological element to the level of disquiet. There are perfectly good methods of addressing this psychological element.

I am not trying to suggest that this is not ?real? to the sufferer ? it clearly is; I am suggesting that there may be methods of addressing this which do not require an extended (and very possibly fruitless) political campaign.

Those part of this campaign are trying to control events through external politicking ? but at the moment these events are actually controlling them, and will continue to do so until and if they get that political change. They have an option to control events internally ? if they choose not to take that option, but rely on campaigning, that is their choice.

[speedbird]

See following link, maybe worth moving out of the 21st century rather than ED:

www.vimeo.com/88093956

A beautiful film anyway.....

Edited link

[El Pibe]

Seriously Penguin, many before you have tried to be reasonable and helpful (CBT was mentioned, oooh about 9 or 10 pages ago), it just makes them angrier. The irony too is apparently lost on them :-/

[fazer71]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> he got the spelling of moron wrong in the first

> line too

Oh I didn't realise this was a spelling and grammar forum ....

Thought it was the local East Dulwich discussion forum.

hold on you're trying to show another example of what it is to be a moron aren't you.

I get it ... that's it . you and troll show you're a moronic troll at the same time.

Ah Very good almost caught me out there.

You're a proper Moron.

-----------------

It's so lovely this morning no Fooking noise from those Ba?tard Aircraft going into Thiefrow.

It's the way it used to be I can look out of my windows whilst working and no aircraft bearing down on me no noise.

Unfortunately as soon as the wind turns it'll be the same old S?it.

-----------------------

[StraferJack]

seriously, one or two posts where you lose your rag and call be a moron or c**t is one thing, but EVERY SINGLE POST now

stick to the topic

(ps it was nothing to do with spelling or grammar - it was a play on words about how frequently you use "moron" - and because you used "morning" in the 1st line, I joked along the lines of you misspelling moron. Not funny I grant you, but I wasn't picking at your spelling or grammar)

and using "Thought it was the local East Dulwich discussion forum. " as an argument is rich coming from someone who has told me to stop posting several times

[fabfor]

picmicnic Wrote:

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> Not sure if this has been posted before but I

> recieved the following message for HACAN

> yesterday

>

> E-mail was entitled - Public Meetings on aircraft

> noise in SE London

>

> "Dear All,

>

> This is to let you know there are two meetings

> which have been organized by local residents in SE

> London re: Heathrow aircraft noise coming up.

> Apologies for the short notice re: the Greenwich

> one but we just heard about it at the end of last

> week.

>

> John Stewart

>

> HACAN

>

> 13th March, Public Meeting, 7.30 pm, Ashburnham

> Arms, Ashburnham Grove, Greenwich SE10 8UH

>

> Tuesday 18th March, Public Meeting, 7.30pm, and

> run till 9.30pm, Howell Hall, upstairs at St.

> John's Church, Brockley, London SE8 4EA. Right

> next to St John's train station. Heathrow Airport

> will be present at this one"

Thank you very much, picmicnic.:-).