Help! Southwark Council Leaseholders & planning permission

[werdna101]

Hi,

Thought I'd see if anyone here knows the answer to this question as the internet isn't very helpful and Southwark's planning department aren't answering their phones.

We're leaseholders and Southwark council are the freeholders. We don't live in a conservation area. We want to replace our single-glazed wooden sash windows with double glazed sash windows. They're going to be exactly the same apart from the double glazing.

We've got permission from the freeholder but they have said that we need planning permission as well. However, we've been advised by the window fitter that this can class as a repair and he will give us documentation as such which we can use for the conveyancing when we come to sell. I've looked at both Southwark's planning website and the national planning portal and they don't give a clear answer. The planning portal seems to indicate that planning permission isn't necessary, only permission from the freeholder, though they then go on to give a case study which muddies the water a bit (i.e. when we come to sell will Southwark say that their freeholder's permission was only granted if we had planning permission and will we need to produce evidence of that or will the window fitter's repair documentation be enough?).

Just wondering if anyone on here has had a similar experience/issue and knows the answer.

Thanks,

Andy

[trizza]

I think you could be getting confused with Buildings Regulation consent?

You need buildings regulation consent for replacement windows and they have to confirm to certain standards re energy efficiency. The simple way round this is to use a company that are FENSA registered. They can certify the windows for you - no need to get the council round.

The issue with wooden sashes is that if you replace them completely with other wooden sashes then its difficult to get them to comply with the new energy efficiency standards. Most people get round this by having the windows overhauled (new seals, glazed panels etc.) classing the works as repairs, not replacement - this means there is no requirement for Buildings Regulation consent.

I think that this is the "loop hole" your fitter is talking about. If he is just replacing the single glazed glass with double glazed glass then I would have thought this would be classed as a repair thereby not needing building regulations consent.

[James Barber]

As a councillor I have sat on Planning Committees to make decisions about Planning Applications for uPVC double glazing replacing non uPVC windows - even though the orignial windows needed replacement.

What are the new window frames going to be made of - if uPVC then you'd probably need permissions.

Email me and I'll get a definitive answer from planning officers.

[edresi10]

Providing the new windows dont alter the appearence of teh property then there wouldnt be problem in this as you are not in a coservation area. Yes, you can apply for permission but you dont need it and it is a waste of money and time. We went through a similar process and found out we never had to in the end.

[werdna101]

Hi,

Thanks for speedy responses:

@trizza - the window fitter is FENSA registered so we don't need the building control approval. We are also fitting draft proofing internally so they meet the U value of the environmental standard. The fitter was talking about planning permission rather than building control permission.

@James Barber - the new frames are going to be wooden, the same as the existing frames. I think there's 2 issues here that we need answers to: 1) do we need planning consent at all for this change 2) if we don't need planning consent for the change do we still need to get planning permission to satisfy the Home Ownership Unit when we come to sell? Any help to these questions would be great. I'll drop you an email.

@edresi10 - Were you a leaseholder with Southwark council? I think the leasehold issue maybe the bit that's causing the problem

[Carrie]

Under the terms of a Southwark lease the windows don't actually form part of the demise and therefroe officially they are not yours to replace. However if you have already got consent from the Home Ownership Unit to replace the windows then this shoudl be fine - but do keep the letter in a safe place as you will need it when you come to sell.

You do not need planning permission for new windows if you are not located in a conservation area nor live in a listed building.

You would need a FENSA certificate or buildings regulations approval if using a non-FENSA registered installer.

[moeispro]

I came across this topic whilst googling for a very similar problem and hoped someone may be able to help.

My property is GradeII listed and in a conservation area. The previous owner fitted uPVC replacements in some windows and the others which are still original timber sash are completely rotten and need replacing. He obviously did not gain planing permission for the uPVC windows. However, before selling the property to me he had submitted planning permission for the reinstatement of original single glazed timber sash (along with some other changes in the property) which was obviously granted.

We would like to reinstate the original timber sash throughout being faithful to the original design but would like to double glaze them to improve their thermal qualities. Do we need to make a new planning application or do we just need to obtain Buildings Regulation approval? We will be using a FENSA approved fitter who will provide a FENSA backed guarantee.

Any advice is much appreciated

[werdna101]

Hi

I would suggest ringing the planning department and talking to them because you're in a conservation area and your property is listed. However, a word of caution, I rang the planning department to ask them about this issue twice and got 2 different responses from different officers so unless it's in writing be careful!

Thanks,

Andy

[PeckhamRose]

Also becoming a member of the Southwark Leaseholders Organisation (volunteer run by very caring other Southewark Leaseholders who do a lot of useful work), which is called LAS2000. Then in the future they may also be able to advise. Google LAS2000 for the address.

[Dmlt]

@moe

A grade2 listed building needs special permission. Also repairs will be VAT free.

I have installed pvc box sash windows into a grade2 listed building in reigate. It took pictures and meetings but approval was given as the home owners could not afford timber windows and they were an improvement on the current windows they had.

Regarding planning permission in other areas this is not needed if the company replacing the windows are either FENSA or CERTASS registered. In a conservation area it is not needed if replacing like for like but any material change or style change would need planning consent.

To the op. no planning permission is not needed but you will need a certificate from fensa or certass showing the windows have been fitted and registered correctly. It is also true if you only replace this is classed as a repair and no proof of anything would be required. It's never the best solution though especially if your present sashes are pretty rotten.

[moeispro]

I've looked into the Zero rated VAT issue and it turns out that only alterations to a building are zero rated, not repairs. Furthermore in the recent budget announcement zero rating for listed buildings was scrapped altogether.

We certainly don't want to install uPVC under any circumstances. We want timber sash in the exact style of the original but double glazed. I'm still unclear as to whether this will require planning permission. I will give the planning department a call later.

Thanks for all replies

[James Barber]

Hi moeispro!

Replacing like for like, even if double glazed replaced single glazing, shouldn't need planning permission.

Ending VAT on listed buildings is probably as much about not subsidising country houses etc by charging VAT to te likes of you and me. Charities obviously claim back the VAT so this shouldnt affect the like of English Heritge properties, etc.

If you need any help just ask.

[moeispro]

Hi James,

Thanks for your response. Can I get confirmation that I will not need planning permission in writing councillor? ;-)

I jest. What's the best way to get confirmation of this?

Many thanks

[Dmlt]

Moeispro,

Sorry if i offended mentioning pvc windows:-$

As far as i am aware a grade 2 listed building does not come under fensa or certas and needs separate approval from the council. There is no way around it and if you make alterations without approval they can make you put it back as it was. I have only worked on 3 grade 2 listed buildings in last 20 years of being a window installer but have found in general with the right approach planners are more sympathetic to change than one might think. However i have never dealt with southark or lambeth regards to listed buildings.

The final answer i believe is you need planning or listed buildings consent

:))

I do realise james is councilor saying you don't but this is only for conservation or areas without any restrictions.

[Dmlt]

Please follow this link and read this if you still unsure.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/1app/guidance/guidance_note-listed_building_consent.pdf

[Dmlt]

Please follow this link and read this if you still unsure.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/1app/guidance/guidance_note-listed_building_consent.pdf

Please pm me or call me with any further questions.

Many thanks

David