Calton Ave/Dulwich Village junction

[edhistory]

> But it looks like the current works are going to go through, no matter what

Is there a suggestion that the plans are inaccurate and do not match what is happening on the ground?

Inaccurate plans or works carried out that do not match the TMO would render the TMO null and void.

Has anyone seen the TMO?

[rendelharris]

Was no consideration ever given to running the Quietway through the park? When coming back from Crystal Palace with Mrs.H, who doesn't like heavy traffic, we go into the park through the College Road entrance, out through the Court Lane gate, up Dovercourt, down Woodwarde and so onto Calton that way. Wouldn't that have made more sense? Problems keeping the park open at night I suppose.

[rch]

Yes, the problem is with the closing time of the park, especially in the winter. Keeping it open for a Quietway (which was also discussed in the LCN assessment) would mean that the cost of the extra security (and lighting, which would disturb nearby houses) would end up being so expensive that it would be unviable.

There was also a discussion at the DCC regarding aggressive cycling in the park (which is a public Open Space) so I'm guessing that this is going to be looked at in due course, as well.

edhistory - I'm suspecting that the drawings for the current scheme are accurate... there's a whole series of legal layers that need to be addressed from the proposal stage up the the final implementation stage. Finalising diagrams tends to be quite expensive due to the process of obtaining accurate measurements, so the rough diagrams are used for consultation and the final measurements are done once a scheme is approved and funding is identified. This process usually ensures that public money isn't wasted.

[Penguin68]

HOWEVER - be that as it may - it is entirely ridiculous that it will take 6 months for this work - I recall watching a (large) six storey office block be entirely demolished and an 8 storey block erected in its place (the plot covering a rather larger footprint than the road space in question) in about the same time 20 years ago in the City. The level of disruption to local traffic, the amount of pollution pumped out from queuing vehicles (adjacent to a school!) is frankly ridiculous, and indeed shameful. That it is the wrong scheme seems likely, that it is being delivered over the wrong timescale is absolutely certain.

[rch]

Totally agree. The area should have been prepped at the end of July with a view towards completing the current Turney section next to the school in August, during holiday break. That would have got the most disruptive bit out of the way. But, because of the number of roads feeding into the junction, it was inevitable that it would take more time than a "normal" junction, especially with the number of changes to the kerb extensions, build outs, etc.

I suspect the legal constitutional signoff on the scheme delayed the August advantage... but if the work isn't done now, it won't be done in time for the council elections in May 2018 (or council budget year end in Mar 2018). Expect for a huge amount of work to be done in the Dec hols...

There could also be a funding deadline cutoff that might be relevant, but I haven't had the energy to dig into the parameters of the Mayor's Quietway funding criteria.

[wulfhound]

@rendelharris I've been doing similar myself in the morning during the road works (and agree with other posters, they should have started early in the holidays, instead of right at the tail end), the park way is slightly further but the wait at the crossroads is so long I think it's actually quicker. I take Dovercourt up to Townley Road, avoiding Calton entirely.

When the Southwark Spine cycle route was proposed to run through the park, there was quite some opposition from one of the local Conservative councillors. The council truncated the plans to finish at Barry Road / Lordship Lane as a result, and then it all went very quiet. But I think the general feeling is that encouraging lots more fast-commuter cyclists to use the park is not a great idea.

The main problem with Quietways is that nobody is clear who or what they're for. The marketing material suggests leisure, but the actual designs suggest much the same people as the present-day cycle-to-work crowd. So it's not really clear if they should prefer parks, or try to avoid them.

@rch I very much agree on the need for better public transport, but there's a tacit assumption that all the cars in the Village start or end their journeys there - I get the impression a lot of traffic is cutting through between points further afield. And it has been shown that reducing capacity for traffic does indeed reduce traffic itself - people change their behaviour depending on the options (we'd all probably drive in London a lot more if it weren't so wretchedly slow, and given the environmental consequences it's probably a good thing we don't). And much of the rest is school-related, which is better solved with walking/cycling than public transport: kids behave better when well exercised, and the very high peak/trough travel patterns are difficult for public bus services to cope with.

[rendelharris]

wulfhound Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The main problem with Quietways is that nobody is

> clear who or what they're for. The marketing

> material suggests leisure, but the actual designs

> suggest much the same people as the present-day

> cycle-to-work crowd. So it's not really clear if

> they should prefer parks, or try to avoid them.

It's interesting, I often use Quietway One, or part of it anyway, to run down to Greenwich. Just after The Den the route runs through Folkestone Gardens on a narrow (six foot) path, never any problem at all, walkers always courteous (as am I, I hope!). One would have thought with the former two-lane road running through Dulwich Park it wouldn't be too difficult to have a cycle route. However, when I first joined the EDF I suggested that the road in DP be divided, half for cyclists and half for walkers, and got about ten pages of vitriolic abuse, so perhaps I'd better keep quiet!

[rch]

Hi Wulf... actually, the reason the plans were truncated at Barry Rd/Lordship is because, according to a previous police sergeant, this is one of the worst/most dangerous junctions in the Dulwich area and funding to reconfigure it kept getting diverted out of the area.

Having said that, there is currently a highway review of various Lordship issues going on at the moment, and the junction is part of it (as well as a Quietway factor). So, I'm guessing that a major logic behind both Quietways routes is to get City Hall funding incorporated into the upgrading of two major junctions in the area.

Otherwise, I can't figure out what the Quietways are for, either... I'm not a cyclist, but the routes just seem wrong. Calton is very narrow and so is Friern. I actually tried making Calton into a cycle route years ago, but the technical aspects are mindboggling... unless all the trees are cut down and the pavement narrowed.

Also, because of the Heritage status, it really would be incredibly expensive to let Dulwich Park remain unlocked (even locked, repairing the vandalism used to cost a small fortune) and installing lighting would be a nightmare on multiple levels.

Lastly, having sat on a multitude of school transport committees, a common theme is that mothers simply don't feel that it's safe enough letting their children walk or cycle to school on their own... some mothers won't even let their children ride a bus. So, if they have more than one child and a job, mothers say that it's actually easier to drive them all to school in one round, hence the extreme number of cars in the area... as Dulwich has more schools than anywhere in London.

So, balancing everything is a real conundrum.

[wulfhound]

Interesting! I heard that the phrase "Over my dead body" was used in relation to the park - but that might have been somebody playing politics.

Narrow is fine for back-street cycle routes (and cutting down trees is in direct opposition to all the green benefits cycling is supposed to bring.. just don't do it), the thing is that they need to be quiet and calm. Camberwell Grove, for example, has been great since the railway bridge was closed. Ditto the northern end of Friern Road.. it's narrow, on-street resident parking, but very little traffic thanks to the barrier at the end.

What do fathers say on the subject of the school run? It's 2017 for goodness sake :o) - although given the state of the roads, I'm not at all surprised most kids aren't allowed to travel solo, at least until secondary school age.

[Charles Notice]

"Camberwell Grove, for example, has been great since the railway bridge was closed".

Traffic still flows up and down Camberwell Grove as it always has flowed.

The only thing that has changed is cars cannot go over the bridge. The traffic amount has not changed coming down from DKH or up from Camberwell Green.

Please do not hint traffic does not use the road because the bridge is closed as some Camberwell Grove residents would like the world to believe.

Camberwell Grove is and always has been safe for bike users.

[rendelharris]

Sorry Charles that's nonsense, I ride up and down CG most days and the traffic has decreased massively, both up and down (from DKH to Camberwell and back) I usually get to ride in the middle of the road as I'm often the only vehicle in sight. I have no axe to grind as to whether the bridge should be reopened or not, but traffic has indisputably diminished since it was closed.

I do agree it was safe for cycling before.

[rupert james]

As a resident of one of the roads off Camberwell Grove I can confirm that traffic is heavier than it has ever been.

I am sure other roads off, Grove Park, Mcneil Road, and Lydnhurst etc will confirm this.

Rush hour brings jams frequently and arguments are common.

Depends I guess when you use the road, we residents see the result all day of increased traffic flows.

Agree Camberwell Grove for cycling has never been a problem.

[rch]

It was usually the mothers that used to come to the meetings I attended, so they're the ones I talked to.

It's not the state of the roads that worried the mothers... it's the risk of phone and pocket money theft. But I did recently speak to a father who was really upset that his son was robbed.

[edhistory]

The order is dated 10 August 2017.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2842673

There is more there than just the Dulwich Village junction.

[rendelharris]

rupert james Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As a resident of one of the roads off Camberwell

> Grove I can confirm that traffic is heavier than

> it has ever been.

>

> I am sure other roads off, Grove Park, Mcneil

> Road, and Lydnhurst etc will confirm this.

>

> Rush hour brings jams frequently and arguments are

> common.

>

> Depends I guess when you use the road, we

> residents see the result all day of increased

> traffic flows.

>

> Agree Camberwell Grove for cycling has never been

> a problem.

Yes of course the other roads will be experiencing heavier traffic, we were discussing Camberwell Grove itself, where in my experience the traffic is much lighter than it was before.

[Proj London Health]

Nostalgia - Camberwell Grove:

I remember flying down Camberwell Grove at lunchtime from my laboratory, swimming a mile in the leisure ctr, then cursing the cycle ride back up.

Criminal Forensic Science is a thing of the past now, but as for the Village challenge, I use either the S' Circular or Sydenham Hill to get to the other side. I too was in the ghastly 'hour and a bit' traffic jam on Court Lane last week.

My question is global deployment for the temp 4-way traffic lights:

Why don't the suppliers of the lights employ an intelligent light system? That is, each of the 4 pods communication as if they were normal lights - so East / West flow and then stop, followed by North / South flow etc. I understand that Turney road would be a challenge, but the flow of traffic would be much better.

McCabe

[ED Light]

6 months is a joke.

Double roundabout looks infinitely more sensible than what is being built.

[apbremer]

There seems to be a bottomless pit for money for daft road "improvements", mad cycle lanes and their subsequent removal, but barely anything for road repairs and potholes. Similarly the absurd overseas aid budget cannot be spent fast enough, HS2 gobbles up our money whilst the police, defence, NHS and other essentials are starved. What a bunch of losers of all parties are running the country!

[wulfhound]

"It's not the state of the roads that worried the mothers... it's the risk of phone and pocket money theft."

So we buy the kids a gadget so they can get in touch any time and stay safe.

And then end up accompanying them everywhere anyway because the risk of some scumbag trying to steal said gadget.

Second hand Nokia 3210 for mine, enough said.

@McCabe it's four way stop because there's only one lane open N/S and E/W, while they work on the kerb widening / cycle lane / whatever it is at the NE corner with Turney Road. Long delays this morning as a result.

[gkb]

Sometimes I feel the council purposely like to oppose views of the residents in Dulwich Village and surrounds. If residents had supported the ridiculous junction layout we are now being given, they might have implemented the much better roundabout layout!

[Robert Poste's Child]

This is just my personal opinion, but it feels as though a decision had already been made to support an agenda and the 'consultation' was a PR exercise manipulated to support that decision and fool locals into thinking their views were forming part of a collective decision-making process. If you're not genuinely taking people's views into account, spending some of their taxes on a consultation starts to look like adding insult to injury.

[Lucyalexandra]

I put some money towards the independent consultation which was crowd funded and they did meet the ?4K target. Anyone know what happened to that? It does seem odd that this is all happening given the strength of feeling against various eleemnts of the plans.

[Ant]

It was total chaos down there this morning: cars rushing through against green pedestrian lights, cyclists and pedestrians crossing/passing everywhere, huge queues of cars with drivers getting frustrated. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt if you ask me. It's even worse trying to negotiate all of this safely if you have impaired mobility.

[kibris]

With all the comments on here why doesnt any ask the LB SOUTHWARK if they can put up a RED LIGHT CAMERA to get the drivers breaking the red light rule

[Robert Poste's Child]

Or they could do what they should have done in the first place: scrutinise the works schedule and reduce the time by five months.