Education, Education, Education

[Fuschia]

Westof I think the situation would be simpler if places were allocated on distance .., Harris kingsdale etc do not do that hence taking pupils from far afield

[skyblue]

James, thanks for the stats. I note that out of 44 Southwark children who did not get any school at all in the first round, 34 of these children came from SE22. That is 77%. I would be very interested to know how many children there were in SE22 who applied for Secondary transfer, and how many of these got their first choice second choice etc and what schools they are going to?

This figure of 77% shows that there is a major issue facing SE22 children in that the nearest co-ed schools have policies that prevent these children accessing them. Charter is too far, Kingsdale is a lottery with an NW6 child having as much chance of securing a place as an SE22 child. Haberdashers is simply too far etc etc.

I know I am a bore but I do believe that if Harris became a co-ed this would help the position. Many families need co-eds. If Harris was co-ed it would provide a proper 'choice' rather than an illusion of choice to these families and to those of Nunhead and Camberwell too. Harris would be put on the list rather than unobtainable schools where SE22 children have no hope of securing a place.

There is no reason why Harris could not become the Charter/Kingsdale of the east. As for no need for a new school what about the bulge years?

[Msgee]

there were a lot of parents in Nunhead and ED pushing for a co-ed on the Waverley site years ago, before Harris Boys was built, but their requests were denied. I don't know why this decision was made, but I know that it disappointed many people at the time who really just wanted a local co-ed.

Perhaps someone with a better memory than me can give a summary of the reasons to have two single sex schools instead?

[Msgee]

James Barber wrote:

The problems

> we have appear largely due to Southwark secondary

> schools taking so many none Southwark kids.

...this is interesting. As far as I know, this isn't exactly a new thing. For years Kingsdale has taken a large number of out- borough kids. Of course this has worked both ways- eg most kids near the Lewisham border with Southwark have historically used Lewisham schools rather than Southwark ones.

I think it might be a bit of a red herring to 'blame' out borough applicants here. The problem seems to me to be that Southwark doesn't have enough co-ed schools to meet the demand. Maybe this is a new demand, I don't know.

[westof]

Fuschia Wrote:

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> Westof I think the situation would be simpler if

> places were allocated on distance .., Harris

> kingsdale etc do not do that hence taking pupils

> from far afield

Well, it would be simpler if places were allocated on distance, because it's a very easy system to understand & to administer.

It may not feel very fair though, if you happen to live halfway between 2 schools with no real chance of getting into either since you don't live quite close enough. Then, if you get a place at all, it's likely to be at a school at the other end of the borough which happens to have spaces free because local parents don't want to send their children there.

Like Msgee, I'm bit concerned that James Barber keeps saying that the lack of school places is mainly down to Southwark places going to out of borough children - it's covering up the real problem, which is that there aren't enough school places in schools that parents want to send their children to.

I'm pretty sure children in London have always been able to cross boroughs at secondary school level - it's often the case that your nearest school in the next borough. Plenty of Charter kids come from Lambeth for instance - it's their closest school and only right that they should be able to access it. If some kind of "Southwark Schools for Southwark Children" policy was brought in, they would be stuffed, since they aren't necessarily close enough to a Lambeth school to have a decent shot at getting in.

Likewise, I'm sure there are Southwark children who would rather go to their nearest school, whether it happens to be in Lambeth or Lewisham, than be allocated a school at the opposite end of Southwark with a ridiculously long journey just because it happens to have some spare space.

[zeban]

Westof do you not realise that the distance criteria has been abused/monopolised by those that can afford to move near a good school? Don't you think that's not right? and can you not see why that's a very good reason to change the criteria for allocations?

[skyblue]

77% of all Southwark children who weren't allocated ANY secondary school place in the first round of allocations live in SE22. Something really does need to be done about admissions policies for our children -this is a very serious issue.

[westof]

zeban Wrote:

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> Westof do you not realise that the distance

> criteria has been abused/monopolised by those that

> can afford to move near a good school? Don't you

> think that's not right? and can you not see why

> that's a very good reason to change the criteria

> for allocations?

I'm not in favour of distance criteria! As I said, it fails those who happen to live between schools but not close enough to either to be sure of a place. And as you say, it favours those who can afford to buy a house close to a good school...

I just agreed with Fuschia that it was a simple system - that doesn't make it the fairest one.

It's also probably the policy that offers people the least choice in any real sense - you get the 'choice' of your nearest school, but the better the school is, the less likely you are to get that choice, unless you live on the doorstep. If the next nearest school is half-decent you probably don't have a chance of getting in there either since you live too far away. But it's OK, you have the 'choice' of a school that's miles away because the parents on the doorstep of that one don't want to go there...

[skyblue]

Msgee Wrote:

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> there were a lot of parents in Nunhead and ED

> pushing for a co-ed on the Waverley site years

> ago, before Harris Boys was built, but their

> requests were denied. I don't know why this

> decision was made, but I know that it disappointed

> many people at the time who really just wanted a

> local co-ed.

>

> Perhaps someone with a better memory than me can

> give a summary of the reasons to have two single

> sex schools instead?

Hi what I have gleaned is that at the time of the campaign for a new school in SE22 there was a demand by local parents for a co-ed. Waverley Girls School was resistant to a change to co-ed so Harris was set up as a boys only. Subsequently Harris has taken over the girls school. Therefore there is no reason why a co-ed can't now happen and families get a decent choice. The answer to SE22's school issues are on its doorstep. Any one else interested in a campaign?

[Fuschia]

While that's a nice idea there are many practical issues.

For eg science would normally be timetabled at the same time for the whole year group to allow setting yet there will be 5 classrooms at each site - children would nerd to travel during the day between sites which is time consuming disruptive and potentially dangerous

Pe facilities have probably been designed with single gender chAnging facilities As have toilets

[toast]

Changes to amissions policies won't do much if there just are not enough places in an appropriate local school. When the initial Harris consultation happened 5 years ago some parents of the girls school objected. The local demographic has changed and mothers of girls may well welcome their children all being at Tue same school. We also have a very vocal vibrant community of local parents who have made a lot of children who will be hitting secondary school before we know it. This is a perfect storm for change and quite realisable! A new school is not an option and not needed. We need an a lot of appropriate school places slap bang around the rye and if Harris went co ed through parent power it would have an incredibly supportive bunch of parents who would feel some owneroship of the school. It could be quite exciting.

[toast]

Fushia I agree it would be complicated but Harris are a clever bunch. A separate lower school to help the primary secondary transition, a separate 6th form, they might come up with something very interesting. Harris are also likely to support a move which came from locals as of ties them more into the community and gets parents 'on board'. Co ed would still be cheaper than building a new school or busing kids all around London. Plus there are lot of key workers in the area who might move out of London if they don't feel their children will be catered for.

Now back to my breakfast in bed. Happy mothers day :))

[Alec John Moore]

Admission criteria would need to be adapted to meet the aspirations of the parents and their children who live around the Rye. Sounds obvious but the reality for us when we went through the innocuously named secondary school transfer process was that Harris Boys ED was not an option despite it being our nearest school and our child being male. Apart from our son not wanting to go to a boys' school, Harris was only taking children from certain feeder schools in Peckham as I recall. We moved hear from Camberwell and kept our kids at Lyndhurst since we all liked it and didn't want to disrupt their education. It was very clear to us that we had moved to something of a dead spot in terms of our son's chances for getting in to a good school that was within reasonable travelling distance. Our son is now at Kingsdale but not without a lot of work effort on our part.

This is Renata Hamvas's explanation of the origins of Harris Boys ED from another thread:

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

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> Skyblue, you are correct that 200 children did not

> initially get one of their choices (many did use

> their six choices). With the movement with school

> lists, this number is now lower and will reduce

> until the autumn.

>

> In terms of the Harris Girls and Boy schools, both

> EDEN (East Dulwich and Nunhead Education Network,

> a group of local parents) and the Labour

> administration who was in power until 2002 wanted

> a mixed school. The plans were for a four form

> mixed secondary with a lower school on the current

> boys site and the upper part on the girls site.

> The governors of the existing girls school,

> Waverley turned this down on the grounds that they

> wanted it to remain as an all girls school. In

> 2002, Labour lost control of the council, but EDEN

> and Labour group continued to support the concept

> of a mixed school for ED. A plan for mixed entry

> with single sexed lessons (similar to the

> Haberdasher's Aske's system) was also turned down

> by the Waverley Governors. Plans were then

> initiated for a separate boys school,to be built

> on it's current site.

>

> The boys and girls schools are now Harris

> Academies, and therefore under the control of the

> Harris Federation. I know a mixed sixth form is

> planned for the schools once the boys reach year

> 12. I have been in contact with admissions at

> Harris Boys and I can confirm that the school is

> oversubscribed with waiting lists for all bands.

[Msgee]

skyblue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Hi what I have gleaned is that at the time of the

> campaign for a new school in SE22 there was a

> demand by local parents for a co-ed. Waverley

> Girls School was resistant to a change to co-ed so

> Harris was set up as a boys only. Subsequently

> Harris has taken over the girls school. Therefore

> there is no reason why a co-ed can't now happen

> and families get a decent choice. The answer to

> SE22's school issues are on its doorstep. Any one

> else interested in a campaign?

wow! this is interesting!

there's obviously a call for it. And it must be workable. As fuschia says, separate upper/lower schools, 6th form etc. Great idea.

[Msgee]

sorry, that was toast wot wrote that, that was...

[John_Fowler]

As the writer of the letter to last Friday?s South London Press about Kingsdale?s admission arrangements (quoted by ?intexasatthe moment), I want to comment on recent posts. Because of the jobs I have had I know a lot about Southwark school organisation decisions taken 25 years ago but not five years ago, so I do not know why the decision was taken to have the two Harris Academies as single sex institutions. I last went though the secondary transfer process as a parent six years ago, and know the difficulties, agonies and grief that it causes. I do know something about admissions. It took the last Labour Government quite some time to get round to understanding the need to make admission to schools fairer and more objective, and that fairness needs to be reviewed continually as it will change with the demographic needs of the local population. The turning point was the Education and Inspection Act 2006 and the subsequent School Admissions Code. The legislation was strengthened further in 2008. A facet of the legislation is that change is left to local communities (through the local authority) and parents to argue for fairer admission arrangements. Examples of unfairness could be Charter?s prohibited walkways and Kingsdale selection arrangements. The School Admissions Code does not help in getting more school places in an area or whether existing places should be mixed or single sex. Incidentally, I have looked at the Harris Boys admissions arrangement and they are well set out. In spite of what Alec John Moore states, there is no priority for feeder schools. He may be mixing up sibling priority and distance, the former have a higher priority than the latter. Perhaps for a while these criteria need to be reversed. This will benefit a school which aims to serve its immediate locality.

Making the admission arrangements for Kingsdale and Charter fairer may not help parents in SE22. Only LB Southwark will have a feel for this possibility as it holds detailed demographic information and, in the case of Kingsdale particularly, can get information from Lambeth, Lewisham and Croydon. Further information about challenging maintained school admission arrangements can be found at http://www.schoolsadjudicator.gov.uk/object.cfm. The current chief adjudicator (Ian Craig) has not resigned. He will remain in post until October to see through any objections to admission arrangements for the school year starting September 2012. He has decided not to seek a further three year appointment. He is assisted by a team of adjudicators who will remain in post. The Government has said that it wishes to revise the School Admissions Code, but has not yet brought out a revised draft, and any decisions on 2012 admission arrangements will almost certainly be based on the current (2010) code and taken while Ian is the Chief Adjudicator. The adjudicator can directly make changes to the admission arrangements of a maintained school (community, foundation and voluntary).

Both Kingsdale and Charter are now Academies. The current arrangement is that objections go to the Secretary of State (although worth sending to the Chief Adjudicator and the current Academy funding body, the Young Person?s Learning Agency). The Secretary of State will then formally refer to the Adjudicator, but any adjudication will be for the Secretary of State.

I am willing to help anyone who wants to object although like all parents my time is limited. I am on to the next phase: university applications. It comes sooner than you think!

[DenmotherSmith]

> Hi what I have gleaned is that at the time of the

> campaign for a new school in SE22 there was a

> demand by local parents for a co-ed. Waverley

> Girls School was resistant to a change to co-ed so

> Harris was set up as a boys only. Subsequently

> Harris has taken over the girls school. Therefore

> there is no reason why a co-ed can't now happen

> and families get a decent choice. The answer to

> SE22's school issues are on its doorstep. Any one

> else interested in a campaign?

When the governing body of Waverly girls asked the parents to vote on the issue of becoming a mixed school, they chose overwhelmingly to remain single sexed. It should also be remembered that many of the current parents chose Harris girls because they wanted a single gender school for their daughters. I think that it is unlikey that Harris will support the idea of a co ed school ( if only on the grounds of costs) A workable option might be an expansion of the relationship that Forrest Hill boys and Sydenham girls have. To build upon their shared six form, with shared after school clubs, shared parents forum, combined performance arts productions, shared DEAS etc. I'd also like to see a common admissions policy giving sibling priority at the boys school to brothers of girls at the girls school and vice a versa.

[intexasatthe moment]

Thank you John Fowler for that post and for clarifying the process that attempts to change admission policies need to take .

I'd not considered that admission policies might need to be kept under review - I spend so much time wondering what the perfect admission policy would be ,and giving up - that I'd not considered that it might be something that changes over time .

Good luck with the Uni applications ,major A level traumas in our household :( .

[MGolden]

The fact is there are not enough school places for the number of children that need them. We live in the LB of Croydon. My son walks to school most days; he crosses into Lambeth and then into Southwark where he goes to school, it takes him 25 minutes. Sometimes he takes a bus and on those days he crosses into Bromley for a few minutes. He meets friends along the way who live in Croydon, Wandsworth, Bromley, Southwark and Lambeth. When he was originally offered a secondary school place by Croydon it would have involved a minimum of a 90 minute journey involving two buses but he would have remained in Croydon. We need a London wide approach and local schools need to be improved. The fact is, as one poster noted earlier a child in NW6 has as much a chance of getting a place at Kingsdale as one in SE21 but if the schools in NW6 were good enough then parents there wouldn't feel the need to send their children across London (although that was probably a metaphorical example but you get the point).

Interestingly, Kingsdale is being criticised for using a lottery apporach to allocations but the Harris Academy in Crystal Palace uses the same approach without criticism. Nothing is completely fair but a lottery approach is probably the least unfair - if all schools used it. Kingsdale appears to be a victim of it's own success: improving standards and behaviour and now becoming oversubscribed and trying to deal with the fall out of that as well.

[Alec John Moore]

@John_Fowler said: "In spite of what Alec John Moore states, there is no priority for feeder schools. He may be mixing up sibling priority and distance, the former have a higher priority than the latter."

I may have been having a senior moment when I wrote that but it would have been to do with faulty memory rather than confusing criteria. Having been through the process fairly recently I have a good understanding of it. If the feeder schools criterion did exist for Harris Boys ED then it is no longer a factor which is evident from the current information on Southwark's website. So, it helps make John's point about criteria changing. I don't have the time or inclination to find the information about schools for the 2010 entry to check my recollection but my general point is about having to way up a range of different criteria set by schools against the needs and interest of my children including where we live, accessibility of public transport, preference for mixed intake, school specialism, international perspective, sibling policy . . . .

[Queenie23]

MGolden Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> Interestingly, Kingsdale is being criticised for

> using a lottery apporach to allocations but the

> Harris Academy in Crystal Palace uses the same

> approach without criticism. Nothing is completely

> fair but a lottery approach is probably the least

> unfair - if all schools used it. Kingsdale

> appears to be a victim of it's own success:

> improving standards and behaviour and now becoming

> oversubscribed and trying to deal with the fall

> out of that as well.

Actually Crystal Palace Academy doesn't use the same - it takes 80% of its catchment within a certain area and only 20% is taken from outside the area. Bacons college also uses the same method. Much fairer.

[MGolden]

Queenie23 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> MGolden Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> >

> > Interestingly, Kingsdale is being criticised

> for

> > using a lottery apporach to allocations but the

> > Harris Academy in Crystal Palace uses the same

> > approach without criticism. Nothing is

> completely

> > fair but a lottery approach is probably the

> least

> > unfair - if all schools used it. Kingsdale

> > appears to be a victim of it's own success:

> > improving standards and behaviour and now

> becoming

> > oversubscribed and trying to deal with the fall

> > out of that as well.

>

> Actually Crystal Palace Academy doesn't use the

> same - it takes 80% of its catchment within a

> certain area and only 20% is taken from outside

> the area. Bacons college also uses the same

> method. Much fairer.

Hmmm but as they are so oversubscribed they allocate the places within the 80% catchment area by one lottery and the smaller number in the 20% catchment area by another lottery. So it is still a lottery within a catchment area. And their catchment area is not LA tied. The reality is most parents would not want their children to travel hours or indeed many miles so the likelihood of children travelling across the city (which I appreciate contradicts my earlier point!).

So Harris Crystal Palace does operate a lottery scheme for a small area but it is still a lottery.

[Fuschia]

No school can operate an LA only admission policy, it was ruled illegal a few years ago

[westof]

That's interesting, Fuschia.

Though it does make it even harder to see how schools could solve the problem as defined by James Barber of ?Southwark secondary schools taking so many none Southwark kids?.

A circle drawn around Kingsdale which reached as far as the East Dulwich apparent black hole for schools, would have to be so big it covered more of Lambeth, Lewisham, Bromley & Croydon boroughs than it did Southwark. And since much of the Southwark slice of the circle is taken up by Sydenham Woods, Dulwich Park, playing fields etc, that would put Southwark children at even more of a disadvantage.

A plain lottery with no catchment seems to at least give Southwark children the same chance of getting in, as children from any other borough.

(The Harris Crystal Palace lottery is 90% from Zone A & 10% from Zone B, btw, with Zone A being a 2 mile radius - according to their website).

[Fuschia]

Greenwich judgement explained here

http://m.guardian.co.uk/education/2000/sep/19/schools.theguardian?cat=education&type=article