Admissions to Secondary School

[Curmudgeon]

Really confused about that description for a new free school in Lambeth because it sounds exactly like the new Evelyn Grace Academy in Lambeth which has been open for 3 years now

[prickle]

Mark Dodds Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's good to know that Queenie's friend's son is

> doing wonderfully at an all boys Catholic school

> that accepts more Pentecostal Christians than it

> does Catholics, presumably because the Catholics

> don't think it's as good as other Catholic schools

> they have a choice in sending their children to,

> as well as many of the non faith children who get

> passed its way because there is nowhere else more

> appropriate for them to go.

>

It sounds as if the school is not as 'Catholic' as you say - the intake sounds quite mixed. Perhaps your issues with the school is something else other than its faith?

Maybe its problem is not its catholicism per se, but the fact that its not a particularly successful school?

[Dorothy]

Yes, quite, Curmudgeon. Was not aware that Lambeth had a problem such as the one we have in Southwark, and it does have a very new school in Evelyn Grace.

I thought we were hoping for/campaigning for more places, or rather more suitable places, for Southwark children.

But hey - good luck with it all Mark.

[Mark Dodds]

There are separate problems on distinct levels. I'm clear what they are and have no confusion whatsoever about why I am motivated to do something constructive. To touch on a few:

The issue of educational standards is entirely separate to the faith problem. Entirely separate from results if my son had been offered a place at Sacred Heart, a Catholic school with apparently excellent academic performance, I would be equally uncomfortable, outraged even, about the situation. Besides the serious issue of faith St Thomas the Apostle does a good job; given its intake.

I want my children to experience an education at a school whose demographic reflects that of the area they are growing up in; not one that is an indictment of a shockingly badly organised education system we all pay for. The demographic of Comber Grove, their junior school, placed slap bang in the middle of acres of social housing, is fine for me and us as a family. It's not my job to be a social worker and get behind changing a school I don't feel comfortable about my son attending on faith grounds alone.

On Evelyn Grace, it has a reputation for being a boot camp and, besides, it's not part of my world because it's not been offered as a place. And anyway, from evidence, clearly its existence does not alleviate the lack of places locally. If I could, I'd change all the rules and change all the schools and apply common sense across the board but that would make too much sense and the world would come to a sudden stop and we would all fall off.

[Queenie23]

Well Mark, I wish you well and hope that you get your son into a school that you are happy with.

But I can't wish you well in your free school setup - It makes me angry that the government are spending millions setting up these ridiculous schools and cutting money to our existing schools. It's a shame that you are so angry with the system you can't see it.

No doubt you'll respond in a sarcastic manner as you have done to anyone who disagrees with you but in my experience it will all turn out all right in the wash. My son started secondary school last year and he and all his friends - all different schools - are really happy and enjoying school. Surely that is what we want for our children? I'm sure your son will be just as happy come September. I hope so.

[Mark Dodds]

Thank you Queenie. I'm not angry and don't mean to appear sarcastic to anyone who disagrees with me, my apologies that it comes across that way; and I certainly didn't vote for this coalition nonsense - or anyone in it.

This strikes me as an interesting read: http://bit.ly/g1uQAa

[CityMum]

Sorry - I'm running a bit slow today. Did someone say that Ark were opening a new Boys school on the site of St Michael's and All Angels? Please don't tell me this is true? Hell's Bells! I think I might cry. Surely the need and appetite is for Co-Ed schools? We've already got an education system fragmented by faith, privilege and wildly varying admissions policies, so why are we fragmenting it further by introducing more single sex schools. How on earth can we expect to get a diverse intake from all areas of society and ability when we are immediately excluding those families with children of both sexes. We've going through this nightmare now in the hope that when my daughter gets to Yr 6 we won't have to repeat the farce. My nerves wouldn't take it, so a co-ed school is both desirable and essential. My son has been to a co-ed primary school, loves it and wants to go to a co-ed secondary school. End of story. When Tony Blair dropped in for a cuppa in Upland Road all those years ago the unequivocal message from local parents were that they wanted more co-ed schools. The huge scramble for places at Charter, Kingsdale, Bacons & Askes speaks volumes as does the fact that these schools are successful! There are enough failing all-boys schools around, doesn't that suggest that in this area at least, co-ed is the way to go??

[Queenie23]

I'd like to know what the failing boys schools are? Forest Hill gets about 53% A-C including Maths and English (about 70% A-C), s do St Thomas. Harris boys - all too early to say but indications suggest that they will do well. What are the failing boys schools?

Boys actually do better at all boys schools - if you ask to separate the results at co-ed schools often it is the girls who are leading the way and the boys do not get good results. I'm not super keen on my son going to an all boys school but he is doing well academically and actually I'm quite pleased he didn't get into a coed. I have seen other friends whose children go to coeds and believe me the change in attitude towards the other sex is quite shocking. Already they are obsessed with who is going out with who, trying to impress each other. Of course my son moans about not having girls in his class any more - and yes, boys on mass can be intimidating - but ultimately I feel ok about him in his single sex school, especially when it is mixed with a girls school in the sixth form. I'm not sure if I had a daughter however if I would be happy with an all girls school having been to one myself and experienced the bullying that went on.

Having said all that though I appreciate that not all boys would suit single sex schools - my son is sporty and quite extrovert so he is enjoying his experience but I understand that for some boys single sex schools can be hellish and they would do much better in coed education. But my point of this thread was asking what the failing all boys schools are?

[zeban]

I went to an all girls school and am really grateful. The pressure of who's going out with who, who fancies who,who has a boyfriend, the disruptions that boys can cause in class, the change of behaviour and attitude from girls when boys are around, would have taken me away from caring about my education and caused me alot of angst. Not to mention going through puberty with boys around- the teasing about growing breasts etc. It's hard enough being a teenage girl as it is. Of course I was pretty nervous around boys when I got to sixth form but I soon got over that.

[prickle]

Sometimes I think that it is the *parents* that want coed education above everything else. If you ask the children, quite often they are either indifferent or want single sexed.

My daughter goes to a coed comprehensive, but if you look at her friends, she might as well be at a single sexed school - they are all girls. Boys (at 12+) are seen by the girls as annoying, immature idiots who they would rather not mix with, thank you very much!

More worryingly, there are other cliques of girls who are quite frankly tarty, flirt and are seen by the boys as 'babes' or some such.

[zeban]

Mark Dodds this is an interesting read:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/apr/10/private-firm-profits-free-schools

[intexasatthe moment]

Citymum - well that's what I understand from this

Renata Hamvas April 05, 02:33PM

Some updates-

I have raised an enquiry to establish if there are any plans for Harris Boys and Girls to merge and highlighting that this is what some local parents have expressed a wish for.

In terms of the 44 places shortfall in the Borough this year, this would not have occured if it hadn't been necessary to closeSt Michael's and all Angels to new entrants this year. Following rebuilding, it will open in 2013 as a new ARK run all boys school. As well as this there wil be a new mixed Academy in Walworth on the site of the previous Walworth lower school. This is planned for a September 2014 opening. It will be non-denominational and is planned to have a STEM speciality (science/technology/mathematics).

Renata

[intexasatthe moment]

As for single sex schools - I went to an all girls school and my experience was not like zebans .

Very claustrophobic ,very very bitchy /cliquey .

More recent experience of nieces attending all girls is one of rampant anorexia and fierce competitiveness .

My partner who is extremly laid back about everything went to an all boys and our son would have done the same over his dead body .

It's not normal to seperate the sexes ,it's hardly a reflection of real life .

And I think parents do care more about this issue because they have more experience of life than their children.

[Queenie23]

Yes of course - it varies from child to child if they suit single sexed schools or mixed.But my question was to Citymum - what are these failing boys schools?

[zeban]

It varies but I wanted to give my view to give a more balanced view of things. That I think I would have felt like I'd been more in competition if I'd been to a mixed school because I wasn't a particularly beautiful teenager, or confident about my looks, and instead of focussing on my looks and how to attract boys I focussed on experimenting with my looks to suit myself and find out more about me, and just being me. Eating disorders develop in all sorts of situations and for all sorts of reasons. We as women are often our own enemies though so I do understand what you mean.

It's a tough one. My Mum wanted my brother to go to a mixed school although he has 4 olders sisters so girls aren't much of a mystery to him!

[prickle]

Cliques, bitchiness, bullying and competitiveness unfortunately are part and parcel of teenage life, regardless of what type of school you are in.

In addition to this, at the age of 11+ there is a large difference in the emotional, physical and possibly intellectual development between girls and boys. Girls tend to develop and mature at an earlier age. There has been considerable disruption in my daughter's class where immature boys hinder class room teaching. The girls have found this very frustrating.

I think there is a tendency to look at coed schools with rose-tinted glasses. Yes, mixed primaries are fantastic, but secondaries can be quite a different thing all together.

In spite of this, I do believe in coed education. I am hoping that things will improve as the children mature and get older. I think single sex teaching in some subjects maybe the way forward.

[westof]

CityMum Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ...so why are we

> fragmenting it further by introducing more single

> sex schools...

The problem is, perhaps, that in Southwark the system at secondary level is already fragmented to the point where there is no "we". It's past the point of no return, just a bunch of individual schools all trying to do the best for themselves.

This BBC article says that "in the case of the London borough of Southwark, nearly 70% of its secondary schools are academies" but doesn't say that (AFAIK) the remaining schools are all faith schools.

Don't think it's a coincidence that Southwark has one of the highest number of children not getting one of their six choices, or getting no place at all in the first round.

[Curmudgeon]

Mark Dodds Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On Evelyn Grace, it has a reputation for being a

> boot camp and, besides, it's not part of my world

> because it's not been offered as a place. And

> anyway, from evidence, clearly its existence does

> not alleviate the lack of places locally. If I

> could, I'd change all the rules and change all the

> schools and apply common sense across the board

> but that would make too much sense and the world

> would come to a sudden stop and we would all fall

> off.

I find this confusing - why would Evelyn Grace Academy be irrelevant - if it's seen as a boot camp that's surely because it appears to share the same mission as the 'free school' you were discussing earlier - surely discipline, uniform, competition, extended days of the free school will result in the same as it is the same goals

Also why is it irrelevant - it's in Herne Hill, just over the border from us - surely it could alleviate the pressure you talk about if people applied for it?

[westof]

There are children living 5 - 10 minutes walk from Evelyn Grace, who go to to Charter - I assume admitted on distance. (Though some would have started Y7 before Evelyn Grace opened).

If more children from Herne Hill start to go to Evelyn Grace, then it would mean less pressure for places at Charter, so it is quite relevant to discussion about places in Southwark.

I don't think Evelyn Grace has any problems filling it's spaces though! It may be a boot camp, but it seems to be a good one. According to their website, they are running a waiting list & expecting appeals this year.

If Evelyn Grace is doing well, then perhaps that's one reason why the proposed free school in Lambeth seems to have a similar pattern. (Mind you, I don't think even Evelyn Grace has an "Anti-Street Culture Club", that seems to come from somewhere else entirely).

[Mark Dodds]

@zeban thanks for that Guardian link. Well then, that article just proves how messed up the whole system is. It's not complicated, if 'Cognita' makes a substantial profit out of education - it's not doing education for the right reasons. A profit for any business is a necessity but in education it should be regarded not as a profit but as a surplus which should and MUST be invested back into the education system in order to make a better learning environment for future generations of customers i.e. children.

@Curmudgeon. My boys don't need a boot camp. They are well socialised, fairly streetwise, broad minded, alert and competent young people. They want excitement, stimulation, inspiration, engagement, exploration and access to the wider world that surrounds them. These factors apply to many of their friends, no matter their demographic background. They don't want to be pinned down to the needs of kids who have the misfortune to come from screwed up dysfunctional backgrounds that make them incapable of concentrating on their life development.

In a sense this whole discussion aboout secondary education makes little sense because, as it must be at government level because there are too many hot potatoes that cannot be touched, it's not taking a holistic view of Education For All. The discussion is about one cohort of kids when really it should be looking generally at why so many children who get to secondary school age are altogether incapable of engaging in education at all; who seem rather to exist by underachievement or to thrive by disrupting their educational surroungings in which case no one gets a decent educational deal. The fact is that good schools are in large part good schools because they manage to keep underperforming kids out and kids who cannot perform get concentrated in a few schools where there's little chance for them to ever get out of life's slough of despond.

It's half a picture when we cannot Children NEED to be capable of learning how to be competent people. They need to be given the opportunity of becoming fully functioning grown ups and, quite patently, our society does not enable all people the chance to break away from their backgrounds - when the only route thay have is through education.

More must be done for education everywhere for everyone.

I hope this is cogent, I am knackered and going to be in bed in five.

[cuppa tea]

"They want excitement, stimulation, inspiration, engagement, exploration and access to the wider world that surrounds them. These factors apply to many of their friends, no matter their demographic background."

Depressingly, I am not sure you will ever find this from a school. As long as schools operate on a punishment/reward system, force feed kids subjects they are not interested in, keep them inside a building for hours a day and where competing against your peers is necessary and encouraged, schools will remain the dubious institution that they are. Personally I'm looking into homeschooling. It certainly solves the problem of finding a decent school place!

[Mark Dodds]

You have a strong point which is an indictment of our society. It's because we don't value education, and therefore our children, enough to think it's worth putting the resources into it that would make schooling an extraordinary trasnformative experience for everyone.

[Otta]

I agree with Queenie on the whole free school thing, it's just designed to increase class gaps. Mark, I do feel for you, but I can't help but think that you wouldn't be up in arms about the system, had our son been allocated one of your choices.

[intexasatthe moment]

you wouldn't be up in arms about the system, had your son been allocated one of your choices.

Well probably not ,but people do tend to take on only those social inequities that affect them personally .

People may not agree with how Mark is tackling this problem but I'm not going to criticise him for wanting to do something about the situation he finds himself in .

[Mark Dodds]

Ahem. Thank you for that contribution to my outlook on life. No doubt if my son had got a place at the school he wanted then I would not be breaking my backside working to help other people's children but then who would eh? However, I AM an active citizen and have been for a long time. I have a good range of networks and adding the school issue to an already long list of commitments is not a huge further drain.

Besides as far as the school bit goes, I think I mentioned this above somewhere, it's something close to my heart and I have been on the sidelines of this stupid system, as we all have to some extent, all my life. I, like all of us, was a victim of the same nonsense when I first went to Grammar school in 1969/70. It was a horrible school that made sensitive souls like me become academic failures. And I saw friends who failed their eleven plus fail at Secondary Modern while my life was falling apart at the top end of the system.

Further to that I've had friends going through this with their children all the time I've lived in London - 20 years nearly - taking their children out of the state system and making themelves broke paying private education fees. I've always thought the system is wrong, unfair and broken; well rather it never worked for everyone EVER.

The difference now is that it is a priority.