Admissions to Secondary School

[Worrywart]

Sounds brilliant, what is the timescale for opening the school once a site is found?

[Mark Dodds]

@skyblue and sillywoman and others, I don't know anything more about the EDH site; I've very little spare time to do any research. It would be great if someone here could look into it. Any chance? If ten people do one bit of work each, very quickly a lot of work has been done. It's the way the Fair Pint Campaign, which has no money at all and is run by six of us sharing out jobs we each can handle, has had a lot of success against very powerful pub companies who have ?millions to spend supporting their business model that is closing pubs all over the UK.

@CityMum. I share your concern but I don't see another way to go. It is as it is. It is as it has been decreed by people who went to public school. That's democracy... There is no other way for parents to open a school. The result for all these schools will be Academy status (and I have doubts that many will get off the ground, the hurdles are so high, incredibly demanding - it's difficult to see how a group of part time people, no matter how talented, could get this together so much work needs to be done). In the case of Katharine's school the intention is to set catchment criteria that guarantee an intake with a broad social mix - of all classes and abilities. By the way, if I say the wrong thing such as using the word 'selection', which is probably illegal to use in this context, it's because I do not know the jargon or the rules. Don't shoot me down, point out that I'm making a gaffe. You should get involved in some way - you clearly know a lot more than I do.

@Worrywart deadline for applications is in May. There's 8 weeks or so to find prospective sites, develop the business case and build a business plan for submission. And to get 300 signatures from people who want to have their name on the application for year one and two intake. Please watch this space for more on that one.

The responses to round one applications come back late August early September when there may be funds to trigger working up a second level application (I think this is the case, there was a lot to take hold of last night). The whole thing is a competition by the way, all applications are compared against each other and the disbursement of funds allocated thus somehow. Don't tell me. I Know. It's a crap shoot of a different kind from the selection process for secondary.

[Mark Dodds]

This school does not HAVE to be in Lambeth. Perhaps Renata Hamvas and Catherine McDonald might like to consider getting behind this and help setting up a school with a Camberwell/East Dulwich catchment.

[zeban]

Citymum I'm with you all of the way.

I work in Clapham- it's so completely fragmented between white middle class and the rest of the people in the general area. It actually makes me sick how obvious it is- and the white middle class families seem to segregate themselves very much by sticking to eachother- driving the same 4x4s etc. I don't think I've ever seen an area quite so segregated- apart from maybe around Nottinghill.

Honestly as much as I am opposed to the whole private education thing, I'm thinking if they really want to stay 'exclusive' they should stick to private schools instead of creating free schools that are clearly only going to pander to the needs of the white middle class parents. And I'm positive their admission policy will be by distance because they dominate the area from buying houses around there-mostly originally for the private schools.

[skyblue]

Renata, Catherine. James, Tessa and Harriet could anyone confirm the legal ownership of the EDH?

Over the next years the demand for secondary schools in this area is going to get more intense. Let's try and create a new co-ed school for our kids in their local community - one that serves them all.

I wish that schooling was set up in a completely different way but it isn't and the kids haven't got 4 years to wait for a different administration.

[new mother]

Rigorous competition ? all children will know where they stand in comparison to their peers and how to improve

Otta, why does this worry you?

[zeban]

new mother seriously- stick to private school because you obviously don't get it at all. What planet are you actually on? Maybe stop using the NHS too given you seem so anti and against anything there for the good of the public

[Mark Dodds]

@zeban. Come on, give it a rest, you sound like a cross between Wolfie Smith and Cato creeping up from the undergrowth. Your stance up to now basically is: 'this is the way it is, get on with it you lily livered middle classes'. You are defending the status quo - and the fact is the status quo is not anywhere good enough. It lets society down. Get active, get involved - change something.

The admission policy for the school we're looking at setting up will ensure that people from underprivileged backgrounds will get fair representation.

[zeban]

Exactly Mark so the school you're setting up sounds pretty good and with great intentions. So I wish you luck (genuinely). If you've ever been around Clapham way though- especially Clapham South-Wandsworth you might not feel so positive about the parents thinking of setting one up there! I don't even know if they're overscribed or not in that area. This is why I love ED!

[Mark Dodds]

Have to admit zeban, I feel uncomfortable in Clapham. I lived in Balham for five years when it felt as neglected as Camberwell does now. I was glad to leave it for Kennington. I was one of the first of the wave of yuppies who moved there in the mid eighties. I ceased to be a yuppie when I moved into a bedsit in New Cross Gate. This state of affairs has continued until now - a penniless publican twixt Peckham and Brixton.

B'twixt the commons? UGH.

[zeban]

Haha- yes that's exactly where I work! It actually really does depress me!!!

[Mark Dodds]

Kings?

[zeban]

Oh no I meant Claphamy/Balham!

[Mark Dodds]

OH I see.

Anyone out there read the Daily Telegraph online? This is my meeting with Katharine Birbalsingh. It's a fairly accurate account, there are a couple of things I'll put her straight on, and the interpretation of me gives me a good insight into where she is at:

Our broken state system has eradicated a man?s right to look after his family

I sit down with a man, in his forties, white, middle-class, reads The Guardian no doubt ? a perfectly ordinary man. His eldest boy is in year 6, ready to go to a local secondary school in September. He has heard about me and wants to know more. I tell him about my new school and why I think there is need for schools like this. He nods, listens and agrees.

?I just want my boy to have the choice of a decent secondary school? you know??

?I know. You want what any parent wants. I don?t think what you want is unreasonable. The way we carry on in the state sector, you?d think it was.?

?Yes, I agree. There is a group of us, all with year 6 kids. We meet regularly to discuss why we don?t have any choice about where our kids can go. Some of us don?t have a school at all. None of us got our first choices, and all of us are unhappy with where our kids are going.?

I feel sick talking to him. It?s like watching a car accident. I want to turn away and watch something prettier on the other side of the room. Instead, I look on at him in permanent despair at what might happen to his boy.

?I just want my boy to go to a school where he isn?t in danger of being stabbed, you know? I just don?t want him to be bullied. I want him to feel safe, not scared.?

?Do you hear what you?re saying? Just look at how our society has forced your standards down to the lowest common denominator! You aren?t asking for good teaching, or excellent leadership. You aren?t even asking for certain subjects or for extra-curricular activities. You?re simply begging that your son?s life not be put in danger at school!? I make fist.

?Then I am told that I?m wrong?that I don?t know what I?m talking about when I say the system is broken? It makes me so angry!?

He nods vigorously, wanting to find out more about free schools, and what he can do.

?But you?re too late,? I say, ?you?re late for your eldest. Your youngest child in year 4 ? you can save him. But your eldest?a free school now would not open until September 2012 at the earliest, and only with year 7. By that time, your boy will be in year 8.?

The man looks horrified. ?That?s why nothing ever changes in this country. Every year, year 6 parents get together and complain. One woman in my group was saying she was writing to Harriet Harman.?

In my head I think what good is that going to do? But I nod politely as he continues. ?You see, every year, groups of parents don?t act quickly enough to get change for their kids. Then when we realise we cannot save our own children, we give up, and no one does anything?and nothing ever changes.?

I nod. ?Yes, I see what you mean. But you can still do something for your youngest.?

The man sits there, staring ahead of me, silent. He looks as if he?s about to cry. But he grabs hold of himself. ?I?m sorry?sorry. Didn?t mean to get so emotional. So what can we do about it??

I start talking. Later, when I walk away, my step feels heavy thinking about this poor man and countless others like him ? men who don?t want to admit defeat, who only want to do what?s right by their families. A man is a man when he looks after his children. Our broken state system (mixed with ideological social pressures) has eradicated a man?s right to look after his family. The situation is so bad it is enough to make a grown man cry. Does this not say something damning about our country?

Funny enough she didn't get this bit at all. What made me well up wasn't my own son's situation - THAT situation is just preposterous. NO. What got my tears going, and it's happened each time I've told someone about it (like now) was my telling her about my son's classmate who didn't get offered a place at all. THAT MAKES ME WELL UP.

He's a lovely boy - streetwise, bright, son of single mum. He was at my pub after school with my boys and two others and I asked him: 'So, what's happening about your not getting a place?' he put his head down and shook it, indicating he didn't want to talk about it in front of the other boys. My sons both rolled their eyes and shook their heads too looking like 'who said that?'. When we were alone later I asked my boys why he was so secretive about it and they said he doesn't want anyone at school to know because he's embarrassed that he didn't get a place at any school while everyone else in his class did.

Next day, when we were alone with my boys, I asked him about this and he said he felt ashamed that he'd got no school to go to, said he thought they thought he didn't deserve it.

Now what kind of system makes it OK by any measure whatsoever for this to happen to even ONE eleven year old? To make en eleven year old feel worthless, useless, chucked aside? Even if he gets a place at a half decent school by September this is going to be with him for his whole life. A system which promotes this sort of injustice quite simply is not acceptable.

And this year it happened to 43 eleven year olds. FORTY THREE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TOTALLY LET DOWN BY THEIR SOCIETY

We're not at war, there hasn't been a natural disaster, we're just making it seem like that.

[prickle]

It seems to be that some Free Schools are just vanity projects for self-important publicity-hungry idealogues such as Katherine Birbalsingh and Toby Young.

It worries me that they have some nostalgic yearning for the grammar schools of the 60's and 70's that are totally inappropriate for the children of today. eg Latin - what is that all about?? They should be taught the languages of today (and tomorrow) - Spanish, Arabic, Mandarin.

Also the focus on accumulation of knowledge rather than skills is misplaced. In the old days, we did not have the internet and other quick access to facts and information, so knowledge was at a premium. Today, what we and our children need is the skill to interpret and use the endless stream of facts that are available to us 24/7.

Pls get real and live in 21st century!

[zeban]

prickle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It seems to be that some Free Schools are just

> vanity projects for self-important

> publicity-hungry idealogues such as Katherine

> Birbalsingh and Toby Young.

>

> It worries me that they have some nostalgic

> yearning for the grammar schools of the 60's and

> 70's that are totally inappropriate for the

> children of today. eg Latin - what is that all

> about?? They should be taught the languages of

> today (and tomorrow) - Spanish, Arabic, Mandarin.

>

>

> Also the focus on accumulation of knowledge rather

> than skills is misplaced. In the old days, we did

> not have the internet and other quick access to

> facts and information, so knowledge was at a

> premium. Today, what we and our children need is

> the skill to interpret and use the endless stream

> of facts that are available to us 24/7.

>

> Pls get real and live in 21st century!

TOTALLY agree Prickle

[Mark Dodds]

YEAH prickle. I share your concerns. But what do you know about the detail?

PART of the three hour discussion on Monday night was about languages. Mandarin was being pushed along with Arabic. Latin was not part of the mix really, other than Toby Young's obsession with it.

This project is NOT about ego, it's about EDUCATION.

[prickle]

Mark, I'm not sure what detail you are talking about, but I taught for 6 years at secondary schools in the 80's and compared to my experience then, the teachers and children of today live in another world. I used to spend most of my lessons in those days trying to get across information and facts as the only tools I had to hand were a few (outdated) text books, homemade handouts and the odd video. One of my children is at secondary school now and she can find out all that and more at the push of a button. So the issue today is not knowledge as such but the skill to interpret, understand and critique all the information they can get.

As for Latin, you mentioned this as one of the aims of the school that KB is starting up in Lambeth.

And as for ego, are you not worried that your discussion with KB was splashed across the Telegraph? I would be, particuarly as the entire piece seemed to be from her side as you admitted yourself?

Having said that, I fully support your motives and feel outraged at the lack of appropriate secondary schools in the area. Personally, I think that Harris going the coed route sounds the best option. I used to know Dan Moynihan who is now the chief exec of Harris Academies. Perhaps you should approach him directly with the suggestion.

[prickle]

new mother Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rigorous competition ? all children will know

> where they stand in comparison to their peers and

> how to improve

>

> Otta, why does this worry you?

Ranking children in terms of their performance relative to their peers (norm referencing) is a very old-fashioned and I thought discredited method of assessment. It does not give an accurate picture of the attainment of each child as their achievement depends entirely on their cohorts. Obviously it also has other potentially negative implications on self worth, confidence etc and assumes that each child comes from a similar background and experience. Clearly not the case in our diverse community.

Criterion referencing is the prefered option ie each child is assessed against a set range of criteria. This is the method used in the national curriculum and the GCSE.

[Otta]

new mother Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rigorous competition ? all children will know

> where they stand in comparison to their peers and

> how to improve

>

> Otta, why does this worry you?

Soory, I'd missed your question.

It worries me, because it's not going to do much for the self esteem of those kids who are told that basically everyone around them is better than them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against all competition, and awarding achievement. I'm also not against encouraging improvement, where it's needed. But the wording of that sounds somewhat more sinister to me.

[westof]

Mark Dodds Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > PART of the three hour discussion on Monday night

> was about languages. Mandarin was being pushed

> along with Arabic. Latin was not part of the mix

> really, other than Toby Young's obsession with

> it.

Mandarin, Arabic & Latin would ALL be progressive languages to offer in an inner-city comprehensive IMO. (as well as European languages).

If you go on to study law, medicine, sciences etc surely having done even a bit of Latin at school would stand you in good stead. (I say this having not studied Latin, or law, medicine or science so feel free to put me right).

And (cynically) if you really want to attract enough middle class kids (to get a balance NOT to swamp the school) then "we offer Latin" is handy shorthand for "we can be the right school for your child".

[westof]

new mother Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rigorous competition ? all children will know

> where they stand in comparison to their peers and

> how to improve

>

> Otta, why does this worry you?

The above could mean anything from intensive tracking to make sure children are on target & don't slip behind what they are capable of (which would be excellent practice), to a giant list published weekly with the entire year group ranked in order of achievement.

It really does depend what that statement turns out to mean, and from the wording, it's hard to know what they are aiming for.

[Otta]

It really does depend what that statement turns out to mean, and from the wording, it's hard to know what they are aiming for.

Quite. That is why I just said it worried me, rather than going off on one about it, when I could have gotten the wrong end of the stick. It just stuck out a bit to me.

[BB100]

Mark, It's nearly a month since school places were offered. Do you have any developments regarding your child's school place?

And what does everyone think of the plans to allow those parents who set up Free schools to have guaranteed places for their children?

[Mark Dodds]

@prickle; it's difficult all of this media stuff. I'm quite high profile in The Fair Pint Campaign and I'm used to my comments being misunderstood and misinterpreted and being accused of having ego problems. I've been told that I'm a forum bully, basically for being prepared to state my case unambiguously against a scandalously iniquitous status quo. I told a group of posters on a pub trade forum that they were deniers of the reality of the damaging effects of the beer tie and was promptly accused of being anti Semitic and of using phrases that had no place in a debate about pubs - this is a debate that skirts around the facts of thousands of publicans going out of business, losing their homes and life savings and communities losing scarce local resources. Not something to be taken lightly.

I went to meet KB having a negative impression I'd picked up from the press but an open mind because I know what it can be like through the filters of media. HOWEVER. When she is stood up to so to speak - I don't mean confrontation, rather that when a robust alternative view to hers is put forward, she listens intently, takes it in, assesses what she hears and takes it on very well. She knows what she is on about. Three of the steering group are people who have worked with her who clearly find her highly inspiring. She is very enthusiastic and on balance I am confident her motives are solid and more to do with children than with ego. Her enthusiasm makes her seem over eager and brash at times I think but her energy and drive is extraordinary and that is what it takes to get something like this done.

She is aware of her strengths and limitations and is managing that well. Evidence is that she has brought the people on her Steering Group together with a shrewd strategic view. The range of skills and experience in the group is impressive. It says a LOT about her strategic vision and her understanding of her own capabilities. She's good and I'm still keeping an open mind.