Admissions to Secondary School

[westof]

Sorry Mark Dodds, I feel I've been pulled into a derail of your thread!

God knows there's enough other threads on the EDF with people debating the pros & cons of Kingsdale, maybe we should butt out of this one a bit?

[Mark Dodds]

No problem westof. WE hoped that our eldest boy would get into Kingsdale - along with friends of his from different schools in Camberwell... I came over all emotional when we visited, I was truly impressed by it.

What do people think of Katharine Birbalsingh? She's planning a new secondary school in Lambeth, I'm not sure where yet but will know tomorrow when we meet.

[intexasatthe moment]

I can't help wondering about the decision making process ( the rationale and input from Southwark ) behind the reduction * in roll of the Academy @ Peckham .

Maybe just to make space for the 2 form primary school it's opening on the same site ?

* from an annual entry of 240 to 180 . Hadn't realised it was such a big jump !

[Mark Dodds]

I wish I was in Texas right now:

"Thank you for your recent email.

Please be advised that the Department for Education aims to respond to all correspondence received within 15 working days where a response is required.

However, currently we are receiving exceptionally high volumes of correspondence and it may take longer for a reply to be issued to you.

We would like to thank you for your patience during this time.

Department for Education

http://www.education.gov.uk/"

[Mark Dodds]

Forgive me if this question is silly because simply everyone knows except me. What's happening with the East Dulwich Hospital site? And round the back of Dulwich Hamlet football ground?

Any other open spaces around here?

[eliza]

I'm a journalist sitting in a BBC office surrounded by Oxford and Russell Group university graduates. 9 out of 11 including me didn't get Gove's invented EBAC because most of us only did one science - we're all arts graduates, or did two languages instead of doing Geography. It would be difficult to argue that we all failed to get a rounded education and we're now on the scrap heap! The EBAC, in its current form, has been criticised by a wide range of schools including grammars and independents.

My daughter is at Kingsdale and my son is going in September. I have nothing but praise for the school. There are a great many inequities in the educational system but they've been created by both Tory and Labour administrations. Kingsdale didn't create this marketplace or choose to be in a borough that's full of academies and faith schools. It has many more middle class children than it once did but also plenty of working class kids too. A couple of the Lewisham schools I visited couldn't have been described as comprehensives as they had disproprortionate numbers of children from disadvantaged backgrounds relative to the areas in which they were located.

I think people also need to realise that some of the 'local' Lewisham schools are about the same distance away from us as Kingsdale.

[Mark Dodds]

Sorry eliza can you elucidate please? As far as I can find EBAC is a brand of dehumidifier. Clearly I failed to get a rounded education and now am on the knowledge scrap heap! Which is exactly what I'm on about.

By the way - I was at primary and junior at a school in a Newcastle suburb where carrying flick knives and smoking were commonplace among 8 year olds and organised gang warfare took place at weekends on the common. The daily walk to and from school was a mental ordeal, never knowing if some band of brawling bullies (they were called hooligans then) would be waiting round a corner on the off chance some posh poof like me would be caught unawares. Most of us lived in justifiable fear from morning to night. Happy days.

[zeban]

Sounds to me Mark that your experience has made you very afraid that this will happen to your kid. I'm now understanding why you're ultra anxious about your child going to the 'wrong' school, which probably isn't helped at all with all of the horror stories you hear about gangs, knives etc in London. But, my brother is 13, grew up in one of the most deprived areas of London and has never been involved in any thing of this sort. I'd like to think that bullying is being tackled more in schools these days as well.

[Otta]

Bullying happens at all schools, including the very "best" ones... In fact, it probably happens in a nastier way at the "best" schools.

[Mark Dodds]

Not at all, I'm not ultra anxious about anything zeban. That was everyone's experience at that school. It was normal. I didn't like it much, I brought it up for the opposite purpose really - to illustrate that I know something of rough experiences. I've heard horror stories about bad behaviour in schools around here and they just remind me of my own time. I don't think the school I went to provided a bad education, it was just in a really tough part of town. My father taught at MUCH harder schools than mine. The battles on the common were something to behold. Like Braveheart on mogadon.

[CityMum]

intexasathemoment - the reason they've reduced the numbers at Peck Acadamy is because the school is preparing to open a primary phase on the same site. I believe that there is already a nursery or will be very soon. PA will then become a through-academy with children from the Primary phase automatically transferring at 11 to the main senior academy. Rather than wait for us all to throw our hats into the ring, they've decided to knit their own intake. This way they will be able to identify children who need extra help or who are showing signs of ability and nurture accordingly. The head teacher is an inner city head who has a very clear understanding of inner city schools and I'm sure in a few years time we'll all be reading threads on this forum, asking why it is impossible to get into this school and how their intake is selected!

[Gubodge]

Mark, EBAC is the English baccalaureate

[Mark Dodds]

@CityMum - really good explanation of what's happening about Peckham Academy. Sounds dangerously like some good solid joined up for the long term thinking is going on there.

@Gubodge; thank you for that. My understanding has moved on a bit. The next question is?

Does it mean more subjects for longer and less specialisation than the traditional 3 A levels?

[intexasatthe moment]

Mark - the EBac refers to a selection of GCSE's that Gove prefers (maths, English, science, a language and a humanity) ,so doesn't affect A levels .

The International Baccalaureate offers much broader depth than A levels and some schools offer it as an alternative .

Citymum - yes Peckham Academy has already opened a nursery on site ,as a precursor to the primary school .

I suppose I can understand Peckham Academy's thinking and imagine they're correct in thinking it will give them a good intake .But was it a decision they made on their own ?

It seems a bit ...isolationist ...,will suit the school ,but reduce secondary school places at a time when there is a shortage of secondary school places in the area . I wonder what real involvement ,if any ,Southwark had in this decision .

I say if any because I know for instance that Southwark recommends that children only sit one set of banding exams for the secondary transfer but have seemed powerless to prevent the Harris Academies having their own banding system and tests .

I worry that all the schools just end up as individual little states ,with no coordination .

Maybe that wouldn't matter ?

I don't know .

Apparently the new education bill has proposals to change the rules that regulate admissions - eg there will no longer be a requirement for local authorities to have local admissions forums . These are made up of parents, headteachers, faith group representatives, and local authority and academy staff, and are supposed to consider the fairness of admissions arrangements across an area. http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/mar/22/schools-admissions-reform-select-pupils

And that does worry me .

[Mark Dodds]

Many thanks to those of you who explained bits and pieces about what frankly is an impenetrable pile of nonsense about our 'education system'. What emerges for me is:

1) There is no 'system' at all

2) It is letting everyone down, one way or another no one escapes the inequities of it

3) Attemps to correct it have been vastly expensive and are done in isolation from the whole and therefore doomed to only partial success

4) It's all breathtakingly stupid; no one has any control over changing it who doesn't have a political agenda

[Worrywart]

Hi mark,

Did you meet up with Katherine and if so what did you think of her, her book, "To Miss with Love" was an interesting read? Is she really thinking of setting up a secondary school?

[Mark Dodds]

@Worrywart: I was just pondering how to deal with this when you posted. Yes, I met Katharine Birbalsingh this afternoon. From one meeting it seems our views are closely aligned.

She is demonstrably passionate about the need for all to have access to high quality education. It's clear that she cares enormously about the need for children from difficult to impossible backgrounds to get great schooling, and that children from all backgrounds should be educated together, and finds it scandalous that our education system works SO badly for so many people. She's convincing in her determination to make change happen.

She intends to set up a Free School and appears to know what needs to be done to make it happen. She has not found a site - so keep a look out.

I'm thinking about it.

Another thing; I'd heard and read quite a lot about Katharine before the dreaded day of school place reckoning came about and reading between the lines it seemed likely that she was being presented unfairly in many different ways. What I heard today backs up that impression. Long live the free press.

[Mark Dodds]

Just got back from steering group meeting for Katharine Birbalsingh's new community school. I know a lot more about the process now. I've already been told this by friends who are much more switched on than I am in this area and, to say the least, the practical hurdles set up by the government for these applications from parent and community groups are incredibly challenging... That said, the people Katharine brought together cover a very impressive range of skills, networks and experience. If anyone can jump the hurdles and get a successful school at the end of it, I think I saw them tonight.

Crucial to the success is finding a number of appropriate sites, in appropriate locations, to choose from. Just to make it clear - the outline below says Lambeth but if a site can be identified in Southwark it will not be dismissed.

This is an outline of the ethos of the proposed school:

Where tradition and innovation meet.

? Non-denominational, 11?18, mixed school in Lambeth

? Beginning with Year 7 only and will increase in size by one year group every year

? Four form entry school with 120 children in each year group

? At full capacity, the school will have 840 children, including 6th Form

Tradition

? Academic focus ? with an emphasis on knowledge acquisition

? Strong discipline ethos ? order and high expectations

? Rigorous competition ? all children will know where they stand in comparison to their peers and how to improve

? A love of learning how to think embedded in our ethos

? Ambition and hard work are the minimum expectations

Innovation

? Extended day will allow for Oxbridge preparation, reading club, homework club, debating club, anti-street-culture club, competitive sport, peripatetic music, drama, Latin

? Student voice

? Vertical & mixed-ability tutor groups

? Active parental involvement ? parents will be required to participate in their child?s learning

[Otta]

Rigorous competition ? all children will know where they stand in comparison to their peers and how to improve

This worries me.

[Mark Dodds]

I know what you mean. It's the steering groups' job to refine these things now and to nail down the direction of the thing.

[skyblue]

Mark did you get any further in to establishing who owns the land next to the hospital and what, if any, the plans are for it?

[CityMum]

I absolutely agree with the need for more good schools but are free schools the way to go? I have serious doubts as to whether this is just endorsing a very flawed idea. The money will come from the public purse and at what cost to the existing system? Apparently a group of city people are keen to set up a free school in the Clapham area known as b'twixt the commons'. They have stated it is to serve the community. They've identified two potential feeder schools Honeywell and Bellevue Primaries - if you know Clapham, you'll know that these are the schools that people move house to get into. Oddly enough they appear to have forgotten about the primary school closest to the planned site. Apparently the school does not have the kind of children they want in their school. I'll leave you to imagine what this means... Isn't the free school idea just like selling off different railway lines to different companies and will we not end up with a system which is even more fragmented than it is already is? The doing away with LEA admissions forums will not do anything to help. I know that in theory to get a free school plan off the ground you have to demonstrate a real and genuine need but what does that mean exactly? And will we end up, like Mr Beecham's railway system with the prosperous areas well served at the expense of less attractive areas? I find the whole prospect rather scary, to be perfectly honest.

[sillywoman]

I seem to recall that the ED Hospital site was looked at with a view for secondary school potential when the action group who got The Charter off the ground were looking for a school site. I'm sure someone who knows better will come along & explain more/correct me, but I think that EDH is built on ground that was left to the borough on condition that it only be used for the good of Public Health or somesuch clause. This meant that it couldn't be used as a school.

[Queenie23]

CityMum Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I absolutely agree with the need for more good

> schools but are free schools the way to go? I

> have serious doubts as to whether this is just

> endorsing a very flawed idea. The money will come

> from the public purse and at what cost to the

> existing system? Apparently a group of city

> people are keen to set up a free school in the

> Clapham area known as b'twixt the commons'. They

> have stated it is to serve the community. They've

> identified two potential feeder schools Honeywell

> and Bellevue Primaries - if you know Clapham,

> you'll know that these are the schools that people

> move house to get into. Oddly enough they appear

> to have forgotten about the primary school closest

> to the planned site. Apparently the school does

> not have the kind of children they want in their

> school. I'll leave you to imagine what this

> means... Isn't the free school idea just like

> selling off different railway lines to different

> companies and will we not end up with a system

> which is even more fragmented than it is already

> is? The doing away with LEA admissions forums

> will not do anything to help. I know that in

> theory to get a free school plan off the ground

> you have to demonstrate a real and genuine need

> but what does that mean exactly? And will we end

> up, like Mr Beecham's railway system with the

> prosperous areas well served at the expense of

> less attractive areas? I find the whole prospect

> rather scary, to be perfectly honest.

Well said.

[skyblue]

Thanks Silly Woman -if the site isn't being used for public health I wonder whether those who handed over the site to the council could amend the terms of use.

I 100% agree that the extreme outcome of free schools is a nightmare for our society and if the Clapham story is correct I will be going to work to pay my taxes, (whilst paying massive child care costs) so that the the rich city Clapham bankers can set up a school that excludes half of the community and save themselves private school fees. You have got to admire the cheek!

Meanwhile I am looking at a future where I will be lucky to find a co-ed that will take my kids. My local co-ed secondary school has a lottery system that allows the Clapham bankers a go at getting their kids in there too! (I would love Harris to become co-ed.)

However there is at least 4 more years of this policy, a dire need for kids in this area together with Camberwell and Nunhead to have a local inclusive co-ed community school and if it's the 'free' way at the moment, or no way what choice do we have? As long as it is inclusive for all our community I would support it.