What DO you say or do when you hear Mum hitting or threatening her kids

[jumpinjackflash]

Nero Wrote:

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> Oh, come on! If I saw a man or woman beating a

> child about the head or neck in a public place for

> some minor misdemeanour, I would tear a strip off

> them. Stop cowering behind hoary claptrap like

> 'different cultural values' and do the right

> thing!

Oh really?! Probably resulting in poor child receiving an even bigger beating when he/she gets indoors.

No one is 'cowering behind different values claptrap'. NO ONE is saying it's right. I spent two years as a child living in Egypt and we were hit in school by the teachers with sticks/rulers (rather like Annette's photo above!). I remember a teacher slapping me around the face because I had the audacity to throw my sandwich in the bin. I was a six year old girl. Just accept that, whether right or wrong, in a lot of cultures this is what is deemed as discipline or punishment.

[legalbeagle]

"If my neighbour thumped his son for keying a car, I'd congratulate him."

"NO ONE is saying it's right."

Going to have to disagree with you there. I think someone did say it was not just right, but worth congratulating. I think I'd rather offend an adult that risk the safety of a child.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/statistics/prevalence_and_incidence_of_child_abuse_and_neglect_wda48740.html

[jumpinjackflash]

replace the word 'thumped' with 'slap on the backside' or 'clip round the ear'. Maybe Ms B didn't literally mean 'thump'?

[The Minkey]

Actually, as it was in response to my comment about child being in for a beating for keying a car, the word 'thumped' in this context needs to be replaced with 'beat with a big stick' - not quite the same as 'slap on the backside' or 'clip on the ear'.

[ontheedge]

Whilst in Egypt it may have been acceptable and the norm, in this country it's not ok to beat children. One of the most memorable things I took away from a child protection study day some years ago was one of the trainers saying "don't let culture paralyse you"

[jumpinjackflash]

OK so 'beating' methods aside, your 12 year old son is found to be keying a neighbour's car. You catch him outright . What do you do to him as punishment and /or teach him a lesson?

[ontheedge]

Make him confess and apologise to neigbour in your presence.If he as any savings use them to repair any damage done. Take away pocket money, computer games whatever means most. Get him to offer to clean neighbours car for a period of time, there are many ways of dealing with it other than a beating.

[Ridgley]

It is a very difficult one, but I agree if what you are saying did happen we should intervene as a child myself coming from a part Caribbean background I was smacked across my backside not very often so it not just Africans that discipline that way with my daughter my look is enough.

[The Minkey]

As a young child, @ 6 years old, I took some money out of my mum's purse and went off with my younger brother to spend it on some sweets. Of course, we got found out and it was straight up to bed with no dinner and a trepidatious wait for my dad to get home when I got a few whacks across my bum with his slipper. Thinking back, he was quite restrained about the delivery, it was the shock and awe of it that was such a powerful deterrent. Even at that age, I knew I'd done wrong, I knew why I was in trouble and I didn't ever do it again.

[womanofdulwich]

If a 12 year old does that, you should be asking why? it is attention seeking behaviour (IMO). It is not just a matter of punishment you have to do something else- and quick if it is your son.

[KidKruger]

When I chucked a brick through a window of house near the woods where we used to live, the man caught me and gave me a hiding in front of my mates, then he took me to my house and told my Dad what I'd done and what he'd done, then watched my Dad give me a hiding. then I had the money extracted for 12 weeks out of my paper round wages by my Dad who told the newsagent owner. Also no pocket money and no pop for the 12 weeks.

When I'd saved-up the money to pay for the repair the owner had done I gave it to my Dad.

A few days later he gave me the whole sum back and said don't be so stupid next time.

[Ridgley]

No doubt you have learned your lesson well K

[jumpinjackflash]

When I was about 14, I nicked a can of hairspray and some hair bobbles from Boots (Lord knows why). I got caught and the police came! My friend who I was with at the time told her mum and I thought I'd got away with it..until her mother told mine. I remember listening in my bedroom whilst my mum was on the phone to her and bracing myself for the biggest hind-slapping imaginable. When she got off the phone she calmly called me over and then she burst into tears. I think that was worse than any slap she could have given me.

[Guest]

I see that my earlier comment has been taken to the usual reductio ad absurdum extreme in order to dismiss it. To anyone but a black-and-white thinker, an occasional smack is obviously not the same as a beating and if used sparingly and without anger can be clearer and more effective than a protracted attempt at reasoning or manipulating a reward-based system (and don't kid yourself that the latter two are intrinsically less of a power trip by the parent - I've seen both used to humiliating, cruel and disproportionate effect by parents my age, thanks).

[PeckhamRose]

It is interesting how this thread has changed from my opening post. I think I was more interested in how we tackle (and it MUST be tackled) parents who humiliate/abuse /punish their kids when the kids have done nothing wrong, or the punishment is way out of proportion to any apparent misdemeanour witnessed.

Earlier posts have given me food for thought and I thank you for your contributions. I will not stand by quietly in future and I will say something. Specially if there are other people around (for protection and witness, even if they don't do anything which most people won't!)

[Clearer]

I saw an African woman hitting a child of about 5 or 6 with something that looked like a stick on the pavement at Elephant and Castle. I stopped and looked at her, as if to make her understand that I had seen what she had done, but to my eternal shame I didn't say anything to her. I wish I had.

When my child was much smaller and prone to tantrums I would give her very severe tellings off/time outs (nothing physical) and occasionally someone would say something to me. It is v v annoying - especially if the intervener only saw a part of what prompted the telling off.

I also saw a man slap his child round the face on the bus because he didn't sit down when instructed to do so. The child was about 2 or 3. I was disgusted. Lots of people saw it happen. One man, as he was getting off the bus said "I saw you hit that child". The parent tried to explain his behaviour by saying that the boy was "bad". The man interrupted him and said "bring him up properly and he will do what you say. If you hit him again, I will hit you". I thought things might escalate but the parent who hit the kid seemed to accept what the man said. I was v v impressed. It is always very difficult in confined spaces to confront people because you never know how it will end up. But I feel that if we, as a society, stand by and watch people abuse children in public we are effectively sending out a message that this sort of behaviour is acceptable.

I think you have to speak out when you see violence towards children. No matter what. If the "parent" is prepared to use violence in public what they do in private must be unimaginable. It must be condemned.

[new mother]

The only acceptable reason for not speaking up is fear that the child is attacked even worse behind closed doors afterwards.

If I saw someone hitting a child especially with an implement, which I consider absolutely unacceptable, I would call 999 and wait till they arrived to give a statement.

If you are threatened by another adult as some posters have stated, that is in itself an assault and something that could lead to a custodial sentence. Call the police.

[ClaireClaire]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread so this may already have been mentioned.

IMO the parents who are most likely to hit their children in public tend to be people with low levels of education, and they may not have the resources to (a) learn better parenting techniques and (b) obtain support for themselves when in difficult situations. Some of these people may be in inadequate housing, have insufficient funds to live on, have adult abusive relationships in the home environment already etc. Learning appropriate parenting techniques is simply not a priority for them.

Of course I do not condone their behaviour, I have also witnessed similar situations and also find it very distressing and have not known what to do. Having reflected on it (because of this thread, thank you OP-er), now I think I would try to treat both the parent and the child with some empathy and compassion, and recognise that the reason this is happening is due to poor education and lack of resources on the parent's part. Having said that, calling the police I think IS the right thing to do, mainly as a route to the family being linked up with social services, who can put some support systems in place as well as monitor the child's welfare. (Telling the parent off isn't going to change their behaviour - much more sustained support and guidance is needed, which you as a passer-by simply cannot provide.)

It is of course a judgement call that you have to make on the spur of the moment. IMO it is better to err on the side of caution and call the police, even if you feel slightly uncomfortable about it. The police and social services are very busy, and if the case is deemed to be low-risk, then it will probably be closed quickly and end of story. On the other hand, it could turn out to have been an important intervention in the life of some unfortunate little kid.

Claire

[intexasatthe moment]

But the person hitting the child isn't going to hang around waiting for the police to turn up are they ?

I so wish I knew what to do in these circumstances .... I wonder if NSPPC has advice ?

( must check )

[Earl Aelfheah]

A lack of education and or resources does not make you violent towards children.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I believe that if you witness behaviour which you consider to be unacceptable you should challenge it. If concepts of society, community are to mean anything, then this is what it takes.

[zeban]

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking rahrahrah. Again another stereotypical comment on this forum that argues poor parents=bad parents. THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!! And inadequate housing and not much money doesn't mean good parenting comes lower in the priority list. If anything it's higher because if things go wrong they can't throw money at the problem. Do not conflate abuse towards children to social status! Also poor=badly educated isn't true- not everyone who is intelligent is wealthy, or has children only if they can afford a nice house and private school, and that doesn't make their decision to have children any worse than the Mum's who have kids as trophys and then end up resenting their kids, and their husbands and their lives! Wealthy definitely does not equal intelligent that's for sure!

Sheesh, what a typical ED response!

I think different cultures do treat discipline differently, and that is abit of a problem as to what to do about it. But the situation that the OP talks of sounds incredibly distressing and indeed abusive. I probably would have gone home and cried if I saw that. Once I saw a little girl being emotionally abused by her mother and older sister- it was real bullying. I kept trying to catch the little girls eye to see if she could see I was there and wanted to help her but I couldn't. I would really have liked to have called social services, it felt deep down in my heart that something very wrong was going on there. I didn't however, but I haven't forgotten about that little girl since that incident.

Abuse is different to discipline and I think what you should do, whether you feel you can or not, calls for your gut instinct.

[PeckhamRose]

Thanks to everyone who has posted, and you have given me more confidence next time.

I would stand there and call the saferneighboourhoodteam or 999 depending upon time and extent of abuse, and would follow parents / abuser if they left the scene to wherever, if possible.

[Pugwash]

Some one I am very close to was emotionally abused by their parents from about 4 onwards - he was placed in an orphanage where he was the only child speaking English as well as a European language, at 4 years was translating for his peers. Both parents were alive, professional people and wealthy.

He lived in this home for 3 years, but saw his parents every few weekends when about 7 years old. Later returned to live

with his parents and his mother as he grew older alternated treating him as a surrogate husband and an unpaid servant.

Needless to say that he ended up in Maudsley for about 9 months and still suffers from mental illness. It took him over 40 years to admitt that he was emotionally abused and at times still suffers guilt from his actions as a young person.

He always stated that if he was hit - he could have bourne the pain, but emotional abuse had long standing repercussions

and the scar is still there and so is the mental fraility.

[PeckhamRose]

Sad story Pugwash.

One of the most dangerous phrases people cite as their favourite is "Live and Let Live"