You know when....

[TheCat]

You know when people questioning social intergration are labelled rascists.....well...this is the guardian doing the opposite apparently.....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/06/i-was-accused-of-saying-of-all-white-people-racist

[Loz]

Having read the 'explanation', it seems that is exactly what he meant. His third paragraph rather destroys his own argument.

Of course, it would have been better had there been a link to the original text.

[Nigello]

>>>>I simply meant to observe that racial prejudice, where it exists, transcends gender, class, sexuality and age. Hence my statement that ?white middle class, white working class, white men, white women, white gays, white children? are racist, while rhetorically hyperbolic, was a clear reference to the fact that racism is not an exclusive characteristic of any one demographic.

Then why not just say >>racial prejudice, where it exists, transcends gender, class, sexuality and age. That way, none of this would have happened.

[uncleglen]

He also forgot- or obviously has no experience of- that racial prejudice-in the true sense of the word where one race believes it is superior to the other- also exists between Jamaicans and Trinidadians, Africans and Afro-Caribbeans and between different Asian groups, as well as racial prejudice from black people against whites.

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> He also forgot- or obviously has no experience of-

> that racial prejudice-in the true sense of the

> word where one race believes it is superior to the

> other- also exists between Jamaicans and

> Trinidadians, Africans and Afro-Caribbeans and

> between different Asian groups, as well as racial

> prejudice from black people against whites.

Well absolutely, and if black people had spent hundreds of years capturing white people and selling them into slavery, torturing, raping and murdering them, and if white people suffered in just about every societal index - financial, health, quality of life etc - in comparison to black people, and if innocent young white men were stopped in totally disproportionate numbers by the police compared to the same demographic of black men, and if successful white business people couldn't drive nice cars without being frequently stopped and asked if it was theirs, it would be just as important to mention it. But they aren't, so it isn't.

[DulwichFox]

Back in the 70's I was stopped in the street in London frequently..

Even more so in Canterbury and also in Reading (Festival)

I am White.. Why was I stopped..? Because I had long hair.

The Police have Always singled out one group of people.

DulwichFox

[rendelharris]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Back in the 70's I was stopped in the street in

> London frequently..

> Even more so in Canterbury and also in Reading

> (Festival)

>

> I am White.. Why was I stopped..? Because I had

> long hair.

>

> The Police have Always singled out one group of

> people.

>

> DulwichFox

I too for the same reason in the '80s. As much as my black friends? Not even close, by an order of magnitude.

[Loz]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Well absolutely, and if black people had spent

> hundreds of years capturing white people and

> selling them into slavery, torturing, raping and

> murdering them, and if white people suffered in

> just about every societal index - financial,

> health, quality of life etc - in comparison to

> black people, and if innocent young white men were

> stopped in totally disproportionate numbers by the

> police compared to the same demographic of black

> men, and if successful white business people

> couldn't drive nice cars without being frequently

> stopped and asked if it was theirs, it would be

> just as important to mention it. But they aren't,

> so it isn't.

You do realise you just tried to justify racism?

I've never understood how this terrible attempt argument ever took hold, but it is not uncommon. You are either against racism or you are not. You can't only be against 'some' racism. That would just be racist in itself.

[alice]

Oh no he hasn't

[rendelharris]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You do realise you just tried to justify racism?

No I haven't Loz, and you're very much intelligent enough to know I haven't. You know that these things are nuanced, otherwise me being refused service in a rasta pub in the 90s for "not fitting here" would be as important to protest about as a black guy being murdered by white racists. You're better than that comment.

ETA: A comparative example: if I said someone dropping a sweet wrapper in the street wasn't as bad as a multinational dumping radioactive waste in the sea, would I be "justifying littering"?

[JohnL]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >>>>I simply meant to observe that racial

> prejudice, where it exists, transcends gender,

> class, sexuality and age. Hence my statement that

> ?white middle class, white working class, white

> men, white women, white gays, white children? are

> racist, while rhetorically hyperbolic, was a clear

> reference to the fact that racism is not an

> exclusive characteristic of any one demographic.

>

> Then why not just say >>racial prejudice, where it

> exists, transcends gender, class, sexuality and

> age. That way, none of this would have happened.

There is a school of thought (mainly in the states) that word Racism is White on Black and everything else is prejudice but that's just words - but then for some words matter.

"My experiences as a black gay man facing racism from white gay men have taught me this."

I get the feeling a lot of what was said is aimed at Gay White Males - but that's only my gut feeling. He's extrapolated the way some men have treated him.

[JoeLeg]

I've read the article several times now, and I'm inclined to agree with JohnL, that I think the racial prejudice he's received within the gay scene has formed the basis for his feelings.

I'm not going to add my two pence worth to what others have said because several good points have already been made, save to say that however much we might like to think otherwise, racism is still very much with us in the 21st century here in the UK. We don't see it so much in the inner city, just like there's not so much homophobia, sexism or xenophobia, but one doesn't have to travel much past zone 6 to find it popping up again. It's still there, and while we may have come a long way from 'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish', we haven't come as far as we thought, and of course it goes in all directions, not just from white to black. It's incredibly complex and there's a tremendous amount of self-delusion going on with some people.

Unfortunately the only way to get over it is to literally wait for the attitudes to die out. We are changing, as a society, for the better (in this regard), but it takes decades and decades. The increase in mixed-race relationships alone demonstrates that people are discarding the old thoughts, but we have a way to go.

One thing I will touch on is his comment about the racial abuse he received from white gay men. Now this I can fully believe.

In the mid-late 90's, while I was idly trying to find a career after leaving the Army, I fell into a job that for a couple of years resulted in me spending a lot of time in gay clubs, particularly Heaven and Trade (it's a long story).

I was shocked by the level of racism openly displayed by otherwise intelligent and mature gay men. his is not to say that they all did - of course not - but the frequency with which I heard phrases and words that I would expect to hear only in a documentary about the Klu Klux Klan amazed me. Seriously, some of these guys would give Stormfront a run for their money. And they were utterly brazen about it - when I challenged them they dredged up the most outdated justifications and opinions to back up these hateful little thoughts. I asked my boss about it, and he said he had never been able to understand why so much racism existed in such a small group, but it was there.

I can fully believe that the gay male community is still, to this day, not racially open and inclusive. It is a blight upon an otherwise proud and successful community which has done so much to further the cause of minority rights. Again, I stress that it is not something I found in all or even many gay men, but certainly in a far higher proportion than one would've expected. I have no doubt that, as in the rest of society, it is declining, but it's still there.

If you're already black and gay - not an easy combination - to find that the community you want to join doesn't always like the colour of your skin must be a horrible shock.

[rendelharris]

Interesting Joe, I didn't know that...not excusing it in any way but I wonder if it's to do with the fact that large sections of the black community are virulently homophobic? I've had black friends, lovely people with very liberal attitudes, who would walk out of a pub if a gay person (or someone whom they assumed was such) walked in. Pretty sad that two communities who've suffered so much oppression hand it off to each other. As you say, we've a long long way to go, in every group.

[JoeLeg]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Interesting Joe, I didn't know that...not excusing

> it in any way but I wonder if it's to do with the

> fact that large sections of the black community

> are virulently homophobic?

Do you know in all the time I was there, that never occurred to me? Though that said the attitudes displayed were in, shall we say, all directions. Indian, Chinese, African, you name it, the people concerned didn't like them. There was also a noticeable amount of sexism and - in such a word can exist - heterophobia. I guess in that respect it's no different than any other group that suffers some level of discrimination - one tends to look inwards for support and inevitably there's a risk that you see other societal groups as an enemy rather than a potential friend.

It was a jarring experience, and not one I enjoyed.

[JohnL]

However Black Lives Matter do march with Pride these days (and usually mount a protest too).

Loads of articles all over the world - this is just one

http://www.dailywire.com/news/17954/friends-no-more-black-lives-matter-slams-gay-pride-hank-berrien#

I think this is the type of issue the Okundaye was highliging

[Nigello]

All this aside, for better or for worse, the arrival of social media and the desire for easy/cheap/free content by the media has meant that this kind of identity brandishing is much more common than before. It also tends to magnetise either those who are almost all in agreement and those who totally disagree so I don't think our reading and reaction to it should be taken at face value.

[Loz]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > You do realise you just tried to justify

> racism?

>

> No I haven't Loz, and you're very much intelligent enough to know I haven't. You know that these

> things are nuanced, otherwise me being refused service in a rasta pub in the 90s for "not fitting

> here" would be as important to protest about as a black guy being murdered by white racists. You're

> better than that comment.

But that example is completely different. Of course, like any crime, there are differing grades and nuances: no question. But your first post? Well OK, 'justified racism' was harsh, but in some bizarre piece of irony you did try to differentiate racism based only on race/skin colour. Maybe you did it as some sort of reaction to UG himself, and maybe you would have written something more thoughtful had someone different made a similar point, but it didn't come over well, especially in the context of the article in question.

[rendelharris]

I'll be brief as we're clearly not going to agree, but: as a white person in London, I suffer from black on white racism to the extent of maybe an occasional dirty look, perhaps being made to feel unwelcome in certain bars or clubs (though even this rarely). That's pretty much it. Black people in London suffer from white on black racism through having poorer access to educational opportunities, poorer job opportunities, more unjustified attention from the police, more racially motivated violence against them etc etc. It's not "some bizarre piece of irony" to differentiate between the two experiences, because they are, y'know, different.