2011 Census - boycott? Views

[wee quinnie]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/feb/19/census-boycott-lockheed-martin

Be interested to know your views on this.

[Huguenot]

I think it's thoroughly irresponsible to damage the management and the future of our nation over something as petty as not liking the company who is totting up the data.

The organisers of this protest demonstrate an extraordinary arrogance that they are willing to damage our nation and the people within it over a half-formed, and half-informed 'principle', apart from pissing 500 million quid of YOUR money up the wall.

They may want to take the moral high ground, but I prefer to think of it as the 'complete tw*t' ground.

[david_carnell]

^agreed

[????]

As Huge says it's 'radical lite' isn't it? If you have a gripe against the Arms industry really get active..it's that importnat surely? But just wasting taxpayers money and not helping planning so you can smug it over your mates over the Guardian and a coffee....purleeeeeeease, that's really sticking it to the man isn't it

[Marmora Man]

Remarkable consensus - I agree with Hugenot, D-C & ????. Totally prattish concept. If the "protesters" are truly anti war there are far better avenues of protest.

[Brendan]

Remarkable consensus indeed. I completely agree. Lockheed really don't give a dam if you complete the censusor not. All it would achieve is to annoy researchers in 100 years time.

If you have a fundamental objection to the state holding individuals' personal information you would have a valid argument but if those are the battle lines you've drawn then there are bigger fights than the census that you should be concerning yourself with.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

WHD_CQMMBS.

[aspidistra]

Southwark desperately needs to have an accurate body count, for funding reasons. What you actually put on the form is another matter.

[derbyean]

The point of the census is to enable the councils to plan ahead for our future needs,

I cannot see the connection nor the value in boycotting it.

[DJKillaQueen]

apidistra is right. Local authorirty funding from central government partly depends on the population count that a census provides, so it's really important that people return the form.

[tompaine]

i think many of the people planning to boycott the census are aware of the implications. breaking the law and facing a potential fine of a grand is not for the faint hearted. i don't know what that has to do with reading the guardian, drinking coffee or taking any moral high ground? i'm pleased folks have the minerals to do this, despite the pressure weighted against them to sit and do nothing. surely it is the game and not the player we should be pursuing. if someone doesn't want their tax to go towards arms companies that's their choice isn't it. that sounds like democracy to me! remember folks, out with anger, in with love!!

[Huguenot]

Your position is ridiculous tompaine.

The implication of 'boycotting the census' isn't about 'breaking the law and facing a potential fine of a grand' you idiot.

The census is a far more important question about providing our society with the necessary information to help them build roads, hospitals, schools, libraries, to support those in need of assitance such as welfare benefits or community centres, and much more.

The question is whether you're going to chuck this all away over some pathetic short term quibble over 'an arms company'.

Unfortunately you, and people with similarly retarded outlooks on life, think this is a sensible trade off.

What's more, you give the game away with your talk of 'breaking the law and facing a potential fine of a grand is not for the faint hearted'

What it shows is that you think this is a game to show off your manliness; how, like some Knight of the Round Table, you are NOT 'faint hearted' and intend to disregard the 'risks' in some pathetic show of righteousness.

Are you wearing a black t-shirt with a white unicorn on it?

This isn't 'democracy', it's the childish squawk of pampered prats who think intellectual onanism is more important than keeping our society running smoothly. Get your hand out from down your trousers and think of someone else for a change.

[tompaine]

hello there Huguenot and thanks for the response. you're entitled to disagree with me but you're not entitled to insult me or make unhelpful judgements about who i might be and where i'm from. because i have a different view point to your own, that i clearly explained without being aggressive (unlike your own conduct)does not make me an idiot. i honestly don't believe my grievance over my tax being used to support an arms company that makes money by killing people in agonising ways is a short term quibble. it is because i am thinking of the people that will be blown apart by these munitions that your advice for me to 'think of someone else for a change.' falls flat. i've served in the armed forces and i now work in the fire brigade. i don't think the label of pampered prats or childish squawking fits me or any one i've met with similar views. the retarded outlook on life you suggest i have is full of contempt and anger and is unwelcome. i have enjoyed considering your position and the views of the other users on this particular forum. i didn't realise we were all supposed to agree - oops! and if you plan to respond can you be less aggressive? i hope that's not asking too much.

[DJKillaQueen]

But one thing H is right about though is that the implications of not filling out the census form ARE that local authorities will find themselves underfunded and unable to provide the required amount of schools etc. The data provided by the census is a straight forward means of making sure that central government and other agencies are able to provide the required type and amount of resources where they are needed. Boycotting it won't make one iota of difference to the arms trade (there are far more effective other ways to protest about that) but it might impact on whether there are enough school places over the coming years for yours and everyone else's children.

H may not always be the most of politeness in his style of debate (and I've had more than my far share on run ins with him on that) but he is absolutely right in the points that matter. To not fill out the census as a means to protest about anything is self defeating, and makes no sense whatsoever.

[Marmora Man]

Tompaine - I agree with DJKQ - and the broad thrust of Hugenot's points.

You are missing the point completely - boycotting the census will have absolutely zero impact on Lockheed - they'll still do the job they've been contracted for and will still be paid. All you will have achieved is to dilute, by a very small degree, the quality of the data that the country uses to make rational decisions about supply of essential services - including your own Fire Service.

[tompaine]

i don't think i am missing the point. if enough people boycotted the census there is no way lockheed martin would be given future contracts for similar information gathering projects. at the same time the government couldn't possibly withhold all the money that has been pledged for local communities. they would have to ask what people were objecting to.

i can't be held accountable for the fact the government have made an error in selecting an arms company to collect information about the family i'm part of and care about. lockheed martin have a very poor track record in terms of previous clients. don't let me tell you, do your own research. maybe you could start thinking for yourself. if you think the government really care about you and your family you're probably too late to see the truth. the elite, the ruling classes, of this country control the politicians. they control you, all too easily judging from the comments within this forum. please government, save me, tell me how to live, tell me what to teach my children, tell me what to feel as often as you can. i find it so hard to make my own mind up. it's down to you to guide me, old friend. i wonder who's top of the premiership?

[DJKillaQueen]

The government would simply continue to refer to the now outdated results of the previous census.

There are many intelligent people posting on this forum tompaine who are well aware of the power of the establishment and the corruption of bureacracy and big business and so on. But they also understand the realities of trying to do anything about it. Sorry but boycotting the census will not achieve anything in relation to Lockhead Martin or anything else. Patronising those that disagree with you by inferring they are niaive doesn't help your argument either.

[James Barber]

It would be sad if Southwark suffered the consequences of another incomplete census. We've just had 10 years of lower council funding as a result of that.

If someone doesn't fill in the census then I hope they at least have the decency to never whinge about pot holes, air pollution, fire service spending, school places and forecasts, social care, etc, etc, etc.

The irony for me is people who boycott the census are making the contract more profitable for Lockheed Martin. Its a fixed fee contract. IF they have less work to do they make more profits. Go on you boycotters make Lockheed Martin richer!

[DJKillaQueen]

Good point James.

[Huguenot]

'I'm thinking about people who will be blown apart by these munitions'

This is an example of your completely daft thinking tompaine. A boycott of this census will have absolutely zero impact on this.

Neither will a boycott of the census lead the government to 'withold all the money'. Another daft comment. The government distributes tax revenues for infrastructure and welfare according to the outcome of the census. If the census is wrong because of daft idiots boycotting it, then it simply means the money goes to the wrong places.

All that guff about the government controlling your family with the census is just embarrassing tin-foil hat stuff. Get a grip and get some therapy.

So the only thing you achieve with a boycott is to ensure that people who need local infrastructure, services and welfare just don't get it.

That's it, that's all you achieve. Nothing else.

So either you haven't worked this out, in which case you're as daft as I think you are. Or you're willing to make everyone else suffer (little old ladies freezing in their homes) because you're the kind of arrogant self-worshipper who doesn't give a monkeys about anything else but your own righteous reflection.

[James Barber]

The really clever trick if people want to hurt Lockheed Martin is to maximise turnout for the census.

They'll have factored in a level of completion. The gap between full completion and the actual completion will be a large factor in how profitable they'll be.

Maximising completion should see below expected profits. That's how to hurt them - the wallet.

Finally enough Lockheed Martin were involved in the 2001 census as well and were paid ?54M.

2009 revenue for Lockheed Martin ?45.2bn.

[tompaine]

http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/2291/276/

http://www.countmeout.me.uk/

seeeeeeeeee ya!

[Marmora Man]

tompaine Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/2291/276/

>

> http://www.countmeout.me.uk/

>

> seeeeeeeeee ya!

Tompaine, the existence of poorly presented and illogically argued websites that reflect your own warped views does not confer any legitimacy to your position. The web is a wonderful thing - enabling small groups of like minded idiots to meet each other and persuade themselves that many share their views.

To date this thread appears to be 99% against your position.

[Burbage]

I don't think you need a boycott.

First, Lockheed are going to get the money anyway. They've won the contract. All a boycott would achieve is to distort the figures, one way or another, and give them even more work to do, which is what you're presumably trying to stop.

Second, there might not be another census. Censuses aren't particularly reliable, and relative figures for area can be guessed at from other sources, so it doesn't matter whether they come out smelling of roses or the other stuff.

Third, they don't actually need accurate data. They need to know roughly how fast the population is growing or shrinking, and roughly what it is in relation to other areas, so that the fixed pot of government money can be allocated fairly. But most of that information can be derived from council tax forms, birth registers, schools and health authorities. A census boycott wouldn't achieve anything at all unless it included significant numbers of people, and differed significantly and unpredictably from one area to another, and there's no reason to suspect that it would.

Fourth, it's all very well saying you'll boycott the census, but what happens if you do that? The answer is that a small army of underpaid and temporarily-employed minions will have to phone you up or come round to your house. Making a stand against an arms-dealer is one thing, but making a stand against a neighbour working for pin-money is another.

Fifth, there are other ways to boycott Lockheed. For example, you could pledge never to take a flight that uses their Air Traffic Control systems, never to send a letter by Royal Mail, or never to call the Police. Better still, given that, as a taxpayer, you're the one buying all these weapons, why not boycott taxes? I'm sure Mr Sainsbury will understand when you ask him to take the VAT off.

It's not that I'm a warmongerer. I proudly joined the millions in our futile march to stop the ogre Blair. But, if we do have to go to war, I see as little point in making our Heroes go to Tripoli via Lille as forcing them to borrow and aicraftless carrier from France. It may seem cheerfully ironic that the nation's defence policy is as dismally counter-productive as the boycott but, in the end, both of them are a waste of your money. And, more importantly, mine.

[minder]

100 years from now (that's the time all our information will be allowed to be seen) our families will be looking back at wondering why we didn't fill out a few simple questions.

I've been tracing my family tree for 25 years and the 1911 census was a joy to see!

Wonder what they'll make of the 2011?