Brexit

[Monkey]

Wondering how EU families in ED are doing with their residency/citizenship applications... My residency application is nearly done... but it looks like it's going to be tight if I want to get citizenship before Brexit...

[midivydale]

Hi Monkey, I am going through the residency application now. My citizenship application will most likely not be done prior to brexit but most likely in a couple of years.

[Dbrskh]

Can someone explain this to me, please? I'm not interested in applying for citizenship since I already have two nationalities and we're not planning on living in the UK forever so I just see it as a whole lot of paperwork at the moment anyway.

I'm an EU national, husband is British and obviously so are our kids. Do I have to now apply for residency? Would someone be able to kindly point me in the right direction to find relevant information, please? Thanks.

[Convex]

no one knows what will happen, so i would go for residency - i have. we are now moving but at least I'm sorted should i want to return (I'm not an eu national but a commonwealth one)

[LondonMix]

You can apply for indefinite leave to remain. Your marriage should be enough to get it but if you've worked and lived in the UK for 5 years continuously then you qualify in your own right as low no as you haven't left the UK excessively in that period. In either case you'll need to take the life in the UK test and provide proof of your Emflish language fluency l. Just google indefinite leave to remain application and all the info will come up. It's fairly straightforward.

[Monkey]

Here's the link to the online form:

https://www.gov.uk/eea-registration-certificate/permanent-residence

It's all MUCH simpler than it was a few months ago: online form is straightforward and less paperwork required.

As an EU national, I can't wait to have my residency and then UK citizenship. It's all too uncertain for my liking at the moment.

Good luck with your applications.

[Shaggy]

There is very little point applying for residency without using it to apply for citizenship. The Home Office notes on Permanent Leave to Remain clearly states that all EU citizens will be automatically stripped of their Permanent Leave to Remain as soon as Brexit is implemented. Your fate will then be in the hands of David Davis. Even this government can't strip people of citizenship though.

Therefore, the only way to properly protect yourself is to apply for Permanent Leave and immediately turn it into citizenship.

To do this, apply for a five year a qualifying period that ended more than a year ago. That gives you the five plus one you need for citizenship.

If you are married to a British citizen you can also apply for citizenship as soon as you have Permanent Leave.

But with all the delays, if you don't get your papers in before the end of summer, your papers may well be still being processed when Brexit hits.

[LondonMix]

Shaggy I think you've misunderstood the guidance. Right now EU citizens have an automatic permanent leave which won't carry on as it does now post BREXIT. However Indefinite Leave to Remain is a permanent visa (not just for EU nationals but Americans etc as well). Once you have Indefinite Leave to remain it can't be revoked.

[edhistory]

> Even this government can't strip people of citizenship though.

I thought the government could as long as it does not render a person stateless.

[Dbrskh]

Doesn't it say that if you're married to a British national you can apply for citizenship after living in the UK 3 years? However it also says you need to have been made a permanent resident but for that you need to have been living here for 5 years. So which one is it?

[ianr]

Dbrskh, the answer to your question is Both. The three years is from s.6(2) of the British Nationality Act, on naturalisation. The five years is from the Immigration Rules / EU law, on leave or right to reside here. For anyone worried about the fine details of naturalisation, the HO internal guidance https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/naturalisation-as-a-british-citizen-by-discretion-nationality-policy-guidance could be useful.

ILR certainly can be revoked, particularly for serious criminal convictions, and similarly even EU citizens with permanent residence can be deported. It was some of those cases, or rather those where a court found ECHR rights to outweigh the arguments for removal, that so got up Mrs May's nose in her Home Secretary days. You can also lose ILR by being out of the country for more than two years: see eg https://www.gov.uk/returning-resident-visa. Which is pretty much the same as EU law on permanent residence, as in Article 16 of Directive 2004/38/EC.

[LondonMix]

I should have said can't (or shouldn't) be revoked "because of Brexit". The bottom line is if you don't want citizenship and you are an EU national then indefinite leave is an alternative

[Shaggy]

No. I'm sorry to say I haven't misunderstood.

This is from the Home Office's notes to EU citizens applying for ILR:

"If you already have a permanent residence document it won?t be valid after the UK leaves the EU."

So it is "because of Brexit", and indefinite leave is no option for an EU national unless one wants to use it for naturalisation, because as soon as it becomes of use, it will be taken away.

Theresa May did indeed test the legality of removing people's nationality, so it technically probably could be done, but if we left the EU and started stripping naturalised EU citizens of their British citizenship we would make ourselves a total international pariah, so it's probably unlikely. Although you never know these days.

https://www.gov.uk/eea-registration-certificate/permanent-residence

[ianr]

Shaggy, what then do you make of the government policy paper available at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk-what-you-need-to-know, particularly para.6 (which is more or less summarised on the page I've linked to).

[Shaggy]

This quote from that page is what I make of it:

"Permanent residence status is linked to the UK?s membership of the EU and so will no longer be valid after we leave.

If you already have a document certifying permanent residence, you will still need to apply for the new settled status document. The application process for people who need to do this will be as streamlined as possible."

But what I make of the document overall is this: these are proposals the U.K. government is taking into negotiations. The EU has made it clear that they aren't good enough. At this point in time, that document is utterly meaningless.

So EU nationals who want to protect their lives here can only do one of two things:

A) Trust David Davis and the skills of the UK negotiating team, and believe that everything is going to be alright. You may well be right, and save yourself loads of bother.

B) Apply very soon for permanent residency and immediately turn it onto naturalisation, thus gaining all the rights of a British citizen and retaining all the rights of an EU citizen. You might end up putting yourself out needlessly, but it's the option with the most certainty.

Personally, however, I have a huge ideological problem with the government's proposals, outlined in that document. They are essentially creating a special class for EU nationals. If one comes from anywhere in the world other than The EU, you get treated one way, but if you are an EU citizen, you get treated another way.

EU citizens do feel like they are being treated like negotiating chips. By creating a special class for EU citizens, they are being made into negotiating chips forever, because all of their rights can be destroyed at the stroke of a pen. That is why the EU wants the citizens settlement to be adjudicated by the ECJ, which the HMG is resisting.

Far better to avoid all this uncertainty by becoming dual nationality.

However, this is an advice thread, not a political one so I think the bottom line is this: for EU citizens permanent leave is only of use as a stepping stone to naturalisation.

Of course, this may change, but that seems to be the Home Office's current position.

[LondonMix]

Sorry shaggy but I am pretty sure you have misunderstood. The government means your permanent residency that is derived solely from being an EU citizen will no longer be valid. If you apply for indefinite leave to remain based on the general qualifying terms that apply to all immigrants (EU and non EU) and obtain that, BREXIT won't effect it. Not all EU citizens will qualify for indefinite leave to remain as there is a length of residency test, life in the UK test and an English language test etc but those who do qualify and obtain it will be fine under current rules.

I have indefinite leave so I'm not speculating here on what it is. I've personally been through the legal process and it's different to the legal status you linked to above which is permanent residency rules under existing EU rules

[Shaggy]

So how many types of permanent residency are there? The Home Office does say quite clearly that EU citizens who have "a permanent residence document" will have it revoked on Brexit. As such I clearly haven't misunderstood. The statement is clear, but HO information is often inaccurate.

[LondonMix]

Indefinite Leave is a separate legal status than permanent residency docs provided to EU citizens. They are two completely different settlement arrangements.

[Monkey]

Well my request for British citizenship has been accepted. Just got the letter today. Now waiting for the citizenship ceremony in a few weeks. It has taken seven months in all to get there so not too bad.

My advice for what it is worth:

-For proof of address, ask the Council Tax Office for a letter stating when you started paying Council tax on your property. Depending on how long you've been at your property, you can go back quite a few years with a single piece of paper.

- Ask HMRC for a tax summary, enabling you to easily prove part of (or even all of) your employment history with a single piece of paper.

- For the nationality paperwork, I used the Southwark Nationality Checking Service, which I found useful and reassuring.

Good luck.

[midivydale]

Brilliant advice Monkey. Did you manage the process yourself or did you use a solicitor?

[birnehelene]

I also got my citizenship last week. Ceremony is on the 10th of April. I did all the paperwork myself even though some of it was complicated as I am self employed. The citizenship bit tool less than 2 months

[Monkey]

My ceremony is also on the 10th!

[birnehelene]

Brilliant. I will be coming with my partner and older daughter who has decided that she will attend in a flower girl dress. So I am sure you won't be able to miss us. Not quite smart casual.

[B&G]

Congrats Monkey and Birne!