Secondary School Allocations

[chrism]

I have a child at Kingsdale and I think it is an ok school - but I don't buy into to the gushing praise that some others have for it. I have major issues with the lack of communication between school and parents, and a particular issue with the SEN dept. Yes, there is a great parents forum, but for those of us who cannot attend, we have almost no feedback on what goes on at the school.

I have issues with the level of marking in books, I also have issues with the fact that I do not get to see much of what my child has done over the year because they do not bring books home. At the end of last year I saw my child's art, maths and english books but had no idea what he had done in any other subject, or how it was marked.

My other bugbear is that my child has not had one out-of-class educational trip since year 7 (he's now in year 9). I have mentioned this at Parents evening but so far it has not had any results. His peers in other schools have, for example, visited Ypres for their topic on WW1. When I raised the topic of trips with my child's history teacher she showed a distinct lack of interest.

I'm sure Kingsdale is typical of many secondary schools but to be honest I feel a little let down by the hype.

S

[BB100]

Hi Chrism,

Sorry to hear about how you feel about your child's school experience but welcome to the world of Secondary schools. I have children at different secondary schools and have found they seem to behave more or less the same. Another parent on this forum was recently complaining about the same issues with Charter. I have found e-mailing schools when I have a problem useful as then I have a record of my complaint but it sounds like you need to make an appointment.

[Ann]

I agree with BB100 and I commented on that thread. I suppose (Chrism) also I would be a bit disappointed with no trips as all in Year 8 but I would add that there are often more trips at GCSE Level, my year 10 son is on a Geography field trip as I write.

To be honest you will find varying degrees of good teaching ( probably ) within most schools. Said son could/would never have opted for Geography as an option if it had been down to his year7 and 9 teacher; " Mum we don't learn anything we just copy off the board", to the wonderfully inspirational teacher he had in year 8 and now mercifully has for GCSE!

I could give a similar story for his Spanish and English teachers in his case. Cynically but truthfully I have learned that schools will give key classes to the 'best teachers' to the detriment of year 7 and 8 pupils and likewise years 3 and 4 in primary school.

A contentious opinion no doubt but I would be very surprised if forummers with extensive experience of the educational system would contest.

It's also shocking going back to Dorithy's post that only one girl at Goodrich was offered a place at Kingsdale! So much for a local Comprehensive; I would have thought that pupils at Heber and St John's have had a similar result?

[Msgee]

what chrism said about school trips

I love KD, but I do feel the kids're rather lashed to the desks from half eight to half three with barely an hour to stuff down their dinners

I wish they'd let em out a little bit...

also I have to agree with your gripe about not seeing exercise books. Have had a couple of real shocks with my son at parents' evening- good and bad!

[chrism]

Thanks for your inpt BB100, Ann and Msgee. I'm sure you're right, Ann, about the best teachers going to particular year groups. What I found frustrating was, when Ofsted sought parents' opinions on how well their children were being taught, I found I couldn't answer meaningfully as I had no idea in a lot of cases. Unless you have a child that gives you full and accurate feed back how can you know without seeingtheir work books? I do know that my child's grades in, eg, Geography have varied enormously between years 7 and 9, and I can only guess that is down to having a good teacher. Unfortunately, by the time you get their grades, the year is over...

I agree with Magee about the desk lashing. My child was so enthused by his year 7 experiences outside the clsssroom, eg, staying overnight at the Science museum, seeing a film of one of the books he studied in English and talking to the director. May be it's par for the course in year 9, but he just complains of how bored he is now!

[prickle]

Chrism I think has raised an important point about how we view our secondary schools. It's easy to get carried away about all the flashy facilities and scholarships and so on, but what should be the core of our assessment of any school is what goes on every day. What are the children learning? How are they learning? How have they progressed? These are the things that really matter and its essential that the school involves us, the parents, with this.

At my child's school, the school year is divided into modules (I think its 5 poss 6) and at the end of each module, the child is assessed, normally with a test. They are set an individual target to achieve at the end of each module for each subject and we receive a grid at the end of each module showing us whether they have hit/missed/exceeded target or not. They are also assessed for attendance and effort for each subject. I think it is an excellent system - concise but informative. We can then contact the school if we have any concerns about how our child is doing.

[Renata Hamvas]

To clarify a bit on waiting lists,

Charter selects on distance (after siblings etc) so would have one waiting list.(true for any school that doesn't use banding)

Kingsdale and Aske's both use banding, Kingsdale uses Southwark's 3 band system while Aske's uses it's own system of 9 bands. Each band has it's own waiting list (true for any school that uses "fair banding" or any other banding system)ie these schools have waiting lists . In Aske's case, as they go o distance and band (and "music), you may know a child living further from the school than your child, the other child has a place while yours doesn't. This is because the two children are in different bands and the location where the children live from the two bands is different and the number of siblings. In 2009 one band had an area of 0 due to the large number of siblings who were in that band, while a couple of bands were over 1km. In Kingsdale's case there is banding and scholarships in maths, music and sports. Distance to the school plays NO PART in the selection process.

Not received the secondary school offer of your choice?

The School Preference Adviser is on hand to offer independent, impartial support and advice to parents and carers.

Come and see him on any of the dates below at:

The Southwark Learning and Business Centre, Resource Centre, Cator Street, London, SE15 6 AA

Email: [email protected]

Wednesday 9th March 9:30-12:30 13:30-15:30

Thursday 10th March 9:30-12:30 15:30- 18:30 *(Sunshine House)

Friday 11th March 9:30-12:30 No afternoon session

Monday 14th March 9:30-12.30 13:30-15:30

Tuesday 15th March 9:30-12:30 13:30-15:30

Wednesday 16th March 9:30-12:30 13:30-15:30

* Thursday 10th March - Evening Session @ Sunshine House ? 27 Peckham Road, London SE5 8UH

Renata

[village people]

Chrism, I sorry to hear that you feel Kingsdale is not offering enough experience outside of the school. I also have a child in year 9 and since being there she has spent a week Kingswood Educational Centre in year 7 along with several other educational day trips such as Deptford Creek for Geography, Rochester Castle for history along with others which support sport, music and drama.

There have been some excellent opportunities for children to go to Namibia, Ypres, skiing in the Alps, Paris and there?s also a trip coming up to Spain in May. While some of these have only available to students participating in a specific subject, I don?t personally feel that my child has been disadvantaged. I understand that the trips that my daughter has been on to date may not have be as exciting as going abroad but they still have several years left at school to be given that opportunity.

I also understand what you are saying about not seeing your child?s work and in the beginning of year 7 I also had the same issue. For me it was a matter of realising that I was trying to have the same expectations of primary school where it was relatively easy to see your child?s work as they were in one classroom with one book for each subject. It wasn?t until I started to work in secondary schools (not Kingsdale!) that I could grasp how different it was. Remember that the students are going from class to class, from teacher to teacher and it?s neither practical for them to carry around an armful of books nor wise as we all know how easily the children misplace things. On the occasion where my daughter had bought home books I can see they have been marked and comments have been added by the teacher for clarification.

If I want to know more about my child?s work or have a concern, I send an email which is a good way to keep informed and also builds a relationship with the teacher. On the times when I have missed out on information however, it was usually because the letter was stuffed at the bottom of my daughter?s bag or she simply forgot to tell me.

I?d suggest, that if you do have any issues that you speak to one of the senior managers as I?ve always found them to be very responsive and proactive.

[chrism]

Hi Village people - thanks for your insight. Unfortunately my child's experience has not been as good as your's - I'm not expecting (nor wanting) fancy trips abroad, but he's not had, since yr 7, a day out to a museum or art gallery, which I find really disappointing, especially as we have such fabulous resources on our doorstep.

As for contacting individual teachers, of course I can do this, but would probably only do so if there was a specific problem. The point I'm trying to make is that I really have no idea what his education is like in several subjects. I have one rushed opportunity a year to talk to teachers at Parents Evening - and it's not enough to get around to all the tutors. Unlike Prickle, whose kids assessments are modular, Kingsdale does tests at the end of the year. If your child gets a poor grade, or has dropped a grade or two since a previous test, you've missed the boat in terms of raising it with the tutor, as you're already at the end of the year.

Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack this thread about school places - I just feel that KD has not lived up to perhaps my unrealistic expections of what secondary school should offer all its pupils.

[BB100]

At Harris schools you get progress reports every mid-term and the child has personal targets to reach each term and for the end of the year so it's really easy to see where your child is doing well or not. This is really useful as I've been able to raise issues quickly rather than waiting until the end of the year. Harris schools are very target driven but at least you and your child know where you are and where your going.

[BB100]

Msgee Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> as for Kingsdale spouting propaganda- I think that

> most of the positive KD stuff comes from parents.

> I'm not aware of the school publicising itself-

> not like the Harris Academies, for example

Oh yes Kingsdale does publicise itself to the extent that Lewisham LA have banned them from advertising in Lewisham schools. Lewisham are on the hop becuase Lewisham parents are going elsewhere. I know someone was complaining on here about the 'stealing' of able children but I think it's about time Lewisham schools up their game.

[sillywoman]

BB100 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> At Harris schools you get progress reports every

> mid-term and the child has personal targets to

> reach each term and for the end of the year so

> it's really easy to see where your child is doing

> well or not. This is really useful as I've been

> able to raise issues quickly rather than waiting

> until the end of the year. Harris schools are very

> target driven but at least you and your child know

> where you are and where your going.

Oh yes, The Charter has this same system - it is very useful for keeping abreast of their academic performance, but also how hard the teacher feels they're trying in class. It seems to be a very child centred approach too with all targets completely based on the individuals abilities. I really like it (can you tell?).

centred

[Ondine]

Hmmm interesting... I have a year 8 at kingsdale. She had the chance of the Ypres trip for history last year and wasn't well so missed it. But generally she's the sort who's happy lashed to the desk.

Have to commend kingsdale for their pastoral care. She's had a hard time going into teens and they have offered excellent support.

[Dunamis2011]

Hi Peckhamgatecrasher The allocations say that because my daughter was given her 2nd choice all other choices below that automaticaly drop off the register. So it appears that there is no hope of being allocated these or appealing? Got Kingsdale (silly me got taken in by the hype and PR sell) Odd thing is I work in PR! Prendegast and Haberdashers HC was 3rd and 4th. Haberdashers sent a letter that they were aware that they were not placed higher!

I have sent my acceptance twice to Kingsdale as recommended by the allocation letter, with no acknowledge of receipt, as well as an email to the head with my concerns and wanting to me with him, deputy and/or chair of Govenors.

For my sins I go through this all again later this year with my 2nd.

I am rapidly loosing the will to live. The system is no as transparent and fair as it is made out to be.

[Dunamis2011]

Thank you Peckhamgatecrasher The allocations say that because my daughter was given her 2nd choice all other choices below that automaticaly drop off the register. So it appears that there is no hope of being allocated these or appealing? Got Kingsdale (silly me got taken in by the hype and PR sell) Odd thing is I work in PR! Prendegast and Haberdashers HC was 3rd and 4th. Haberdashers sent a letter that they were aware that they were not placed higher!

I have sent my acceptance twice to Kingsdale as recommended by the allocation letter, with no acknowledge of receipt, as well as an email to the head with my concerns and wanting to me with him, deputy and/or chair of Govenors.

For my sins I go through this all again later this year with my 2nd.

I am rapidly loosing the will to live. The system is no as transparent and fair as it is made out to be.

[Dunamis2011]

Thank you Peckhamgatecrasher The allocations say that because my daughter was given her 2nd choice all other choices below that automaticaly drop off the register. So it appears that there is no hope of being allocated these or appealing? Got Kingsdale (silly me got taken in by the hype and PR sell) Odd thing is I work in PR! Prendegast and Haberdashers HC was 3rd and 4th. Haberdashers sent a letter that they were aware that they were not placed higher!

I have sent my acceptance twice to Kingsdale as recommended by the allocation letter, with no acknowledge of receipt, as well as an email to the head with my concerns and wanting to me with him, deputy and/or chair of Govenors.

For my sins I go through this all again later this year with my 2nd.

[village people]

Dunamis2011, what a shame you seen disappointed that you daughter has gotten into Kingsdale. I?m interested to know on what basis you feel you?ve been ?taken in by the hype? without your child even having started there. Could it be due to posts from other people (particularly those that do not have children there) on this forum who have cast doubt over the choice you made? I hope not: give the school a chance, the best measure of that will be when your daughter starts there and comes home happy.

From a practical point of view regarding your acceptance acknowledgment, I?m sure you will receive it in good time. From experience of working in schools, I know that this is one of the busiest times of year and as Kingsdale is so popular they will be inundated with enquiries from all of the parents whose child didn?t get in along with the several hundred acceptance responses such as yours.

I have a daughter there in year 9 and she couldn?t be happier. Ironically we chose the school when nobody else wanted to know because we believed the ?hype? and in all honestly we have never had one regret.

By the way, I hope the fact that you are posting at 4.25am is not because of losing sleep with worry!

[Keef]

So good you said it 3 times!

I don't get it, lots of people are gutted to have missed out on Kingsdale, whilst you're convinced it's rubbish before you even start.

Believe me, Haberdashers is just a school like any other. (Although if your child is musical, it's briliant!)

[Huggers]

Dunamis, I have two children at Haberdashers and yes it's good, but they have lots of friends at Kingsdale which sounds pretty good too. My son only got into habs as a sibling after the catchment narrowed and I can assure you that otherwise he would have happily have gone to Kingsdale if he had been lucky enough to get in.

It sounds like it's an ever improving school not content to rest on its laurels. Both Habs and Prendergast have found new admissions that compel them not to select anymore really challenging as theyve been spoilt for choice in the past. Now they have the same intake as everyone else,( a real mixture of abilities) so if that is what was worrying you don't be.

Children with pro active parents will do well whichever school they go to as long as they are happy there and there are teachers who want to teach them at the top of their level.

You liked Kingsdale when you visited it, don't be swayed by others. And most importantly don't pass your anxiety and lack of confidence in the school onto your child who is going there.

As for results, think about your child- if he/she was going to get all A's at a grammer school she will get all A's there as well.

If you don't think the sixth form is good enough cross that bridge when you come to it. Lots of children change schools for A level!

Also Habs sending those letters is a little bit of revenge I think on not being put number one anymore. Forget it!

[FatherJack]

posted in frustration.....now deleted!

[Queenie23]

Huggers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dunamis, I have two children at Haberdashers and

> yes it's good, but they have lots of friends at

> Kingsdale which sounds pretty good too. My son

> only got into habs as a sibling after the

> catchment narrowed and I can assure you that

> otherwise he would have happily have gone to

> Kingsdale if he had been lucky enough to get in.

>

> It sounds like it's an ever improving school not

> content to rest on its laurels. Both Habs and

> Prendergast have found new admissions that compel

> them not to select anymore really challenging as

> theyve been spoilt for choice in the past. Now

> they have the same intake as everyone else,( a

> real mixture of abilities) so if that is what was

> worrying you don't be.

>

> Children with pro active parents will do well

> whichever school they go to as long as they are

> happy there and there are teachers who want to

> teach them at the top of their level.

>

> You liked Kingsdale when you visited it, don't be

> swayed by others. And most importantly don't pass

> your anxiety and lack of confidence in the school

> onto your child who is going there.

> As for results, think about your child- if he/she

> was going to get all A's at a grammer school she

> will get all A's there as well.

> If you don't think the sixth form is good enough

> cross that bridge when you come to it. Lots of

> children change schools for A level!

>

> Also Habs sending those letters is a little bit of

> revenge I think on not being put number one

> anymore. Forget it!

Letter? What letter?

[zeban]

Here Queenie23:

Dunamis2011 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

...Haberdashers sent a letter that they were aware that they were not placed higher!

[Renata Hamvas]

For parents with year 5 children, some of the posts above indicate what is important for you to do in preparation for the 2012 allocations. There are no hard and fast rules that will ensure that you will get a school of your choice, but doing the following will increase the likelihood of success.

Be aware that the suburban grammar schools (Kent eg Dartford, Sutton etc) are increasingly having exams before CAF forms go in, entries need to go in in summer term with tests typically in September.

Visit as many schools as you can, not just within Southwark but in neighbouring boroughs if you live quite close to a borough boundary, ie East Dulwich and Nunhead.(eg Haberdasher's Askes, Deptford Green, Bonus Pastor in Lewisham). If possible visit yourself in year 5 and with your child, to a shortlist in September of year 6. If possible and you want to see more, go to more than one open evening/day. Speak to parents with children in the school or post on here for opinions.

Carefully read the prospectus and admissions criteria for the school. Do you satisfy them? Note that schools that select on distance will vary their catchment from year to year dependant on numbers of applicants and where they live.

If the school selects on a particular ability, be aware that this selection is highly competitive and your child will probably need to be outstanding rather than just good in the field of selection. Be aware that level 5 predictions are not exceptional, they indicate that they are above average (unless your child is eg in year 4 and already level 5).

Do be aware that some schools are very oversubscribed and therefore do put down 6 choices and make sure of a correct order of preference. If your prefered schools are very popular, try to put down schools that you have a very good chance to get a place, in the remaining places rather than 6 very oversubscribed schools. Be realistic, if you live 3 km from a popular school which typically takes pupils up to a km away, unless they have a special need only met by that school, or a sibling there, they will not get a place there. It is fine to have 1 or 2 long shots on your list but you are likely to be disappointed if you put down 6 such preferences.

Schools such as Kingsdale and Bacon's College that allocate by random allocation are basically operating a lottery system. The more people who apply to these schools, the lower your chance of getting a place. If you live close to a school operating such an admissions policy, living close to the school does not give you priority over someone living further away.

If applying to a church school, look at the religious criteria they use to select. These can be quite varied, date of baptism may be important for some schools or being in a feeder primary may be more important for others. Some Catholic schools offer places to children which practice eastern orthodox Christianity (eg Greek) but others do not.

For the current applicants, scroll up to see the details of the advisory service at Cator Street SE15

Schools do not know where you have placed them, but they do know if another school has offered you a place that has removed you from the pot for the subsequent rounds of place allocation that occur prior to the 2nd March offer day. If you have got your order wrong on your form, it is worth contacting the school below the one you were offered in case they are willing to put you on their waiting list. I know of two children this occurred with last year, one got an offer at the lower placed school in May and the other in October. Remember that if you wish you had placed schools in a different order, you may have not been offered a place at your preferred school anyway!

Dunamis2011 - if you live close to Haberdasher's Askes Pepy's road site (check your exact distance by using the Post Office postcode to postcode checker) it may be worth contacting the school to find out if you would have been allocated a place on distance. If so, discuss whether it would be possible to go on their waiting list. Kingsdale is a popular school and there are many parents who wish they were in your shoes! Please contact me by e-mail or PM.

Renata

[BB100]

This is all very good advice Renata but maybe it should go in its own thread for the attention of year 5 parents. Some of the grammars are having their open days starting in June so Year 5 parents need to get organised now and may not be reading this thread.

[Renata Hamvas]

For those of you linked up specifically to this thread, and still looking for a school place, there is an open mornbing at Deptford Green on Thursday 24th March at 9.15. To register your attendance and to be sent a prospectus email [email protected]

Renata