Secondary School Allocations

[Debi]

Queenie - you said 'And Debi- you obviously work at Kingsdale. Please be honest and say that you might be biased.;'

No, I don't work at the school. In fact, I have never been anything other than honest. I have said clearly here and on other threads on the forum that I have 2 children at the school, one in Year 11 and one in Year 8. Unlike many other people here, I post under my real name and am happy to be identiified. I have been active as a Kinsgdale parent for 4.5 years. I am the secretary of the parents' forum and of the parents' literacy support group. I am also on a rota of parent volunteers who come in on Saturdays to support pupils who need extra help with reading and writing.

I am most certainly biased. I love the school and will always be grateful that we ignored all those people years ago who told us we were either ignorant or evil to send our older son there, Fast forward a few years and now people (some of them the same ones who had criticsed us before) have recognised what a great school it is and are desperate for their children to get in. I find it bewildering that, in spite of this, many of those same people seem to take every opportunity to find fault and criticise.

Is the school perfect? No, of course not, and in fact they pride themselves on being open to constructive criticism and willing to change, which is why they consult with parents to the extent that they do. Ask anyone who has children at the school and who attends the monthly forum. Personally, I'd far rather be on the inside, working with the staff and management team to build on the radical improvements they are continuing to make, than outside, wagging fingers of condemnation.

You describe me as biased. The word I would use is 'loyal'.

BTW - the answer to the questions about how the scholarships work and why more are awarded than would constitute 15% of the places allocated are on other threads. I know because I've said it so many times.

[Queenie23]

Sorry Debi - You are obviously a very supportive parent to the school and I admire you that you were one of the early parents to recognize that Kingsdale was a fast improving school - but I think that certain criticisms of Kingsdale are valid (ie propaganda, aggressive targeting the aspirational families) etc. But well done Kingsdale,it is doing alot right.

[prickle]

Debi, could you put a link to the explanation about the scholarships here. Thanks

[intexasatthe moment]

After looked after children ,siblings ,and I presume children with statements ,priority is given according to how close you live to the school"

Which school are you referring to intexas?

Dorothy - sorry ,all getting a bit confusing ,that remark was in reply to someone asking about The Charter's catchement area .

[BB100]

Fuschia Wrote:

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> BB100 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >> The money comes from renting out the Pod and

> hall

> > at the weekends. The BBC used it last year to

> film

> > Question Time. The Head also earns money from

> > architects and engineering students visiting

> his

> > award-winning building who come on a regular

> > basis.

>

> WEll, all of that IS part of the school budget.

> But a school is at liberty to provide additional

> tuition if it wants to and can afford it

I was making the point that the money is not being pinced from other parts of the budget

[Debi]

Prickle - 'Debi, could you put a link to the explanation about the scholarships here. Thanks'

Or you could search the forum yourself. Make sure you select all dates, not just the last month.

[BB100]

Queenie23 Wrote:

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> Kingsdale turned the school around by appealing to

> the middle classes

Hello. But if you don't have a range of abilities in your school then how are you going to get them?

[Queenie23]

YES but you are taking that away from the other local schools!!!!!

[prickle]

ok, I've done the search and here lis the link about Kingsdale scholarships from last year.

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?29,431516,435596#msg-435596

Have to say, I'm none the wiser and its depressing that the same issues are being debated again a year later!

[intexasatthe moment]

The bit about scholarships is here I think

Scholarships: According to the selection criteria, 15% of the intake must include children awarded a scholarship. But more than this figure are initially offered scholarships. This is not 'manipulation' or a 'cynical ploy'. They have to do it this way because there's a good chance that not every one in this position would take up a place at the school, even if it was offered (as in the case of gwod on this thread). So they have no choice but to award more than that 15% figure.

I've spent a long time looking but I can't see any advice on how they decide who to offer the place to if a scholarship person drops out .

[prickle]

Thanks, Intexas, didn't pick up on that?

I noticed that the thread also talks about half scholarships - what are they all about?

[Debi]

*sigh* OK - here is how I see it. But please realise that I don't claim to represent the school - or anyone else for that matter.

If the intake is 210 and 15% will be children who have been offered scholarships, that equates to 30 children. But if the school only awarded 30 scholarships at that stage in the process, the problems should be obvious. As you will see from the explanation of the complex process (by Renata Hamvas earlier in this thread) no school has access to specific info re applicants, including where their school has been placed on that child's list. So, if they awarded only 30 scholarships, there's no guarantee that those 30 people would accept a place at the school, even if it was offered. They might have put other schools higher up their list and be offered places at them. Or they might move out of the area, or decide to go private. So logic dictates that the school has to award more than the minimum of 30 ie 15%.

I have been present at many open mornings and evenings and know that this is made clear. There's a lot of info to take on board at these events and maybe people miss the crucial bits, or maybe they have preconceptions and everything they hear is filtered according to those preconceptions.

I also know from personal experience that the process is made abundantly clear ie that, if a scholarship is awarded, it does not guarantee a place at the school. It can't - because that stage of the process is handled by the LA and not by the school. When my younger son was awarded scholarships in both music and sport we were told very clearly, both verbally and in writing, that it didn't guarantee him a place - even though he also had a sibling at the school.

Does this help? I sincerely hope so, though I suspect we'll go through the same discussions next year.

[prickle]

Thank you Debi, you are right - it is a very complex process.

As you are someone with some influence at Kingsdale, perhaps it may be an idea to feedback to the school that they really need to spell out their admissions and scholarship criteria on their website so that there is absolutely no confusion.

It seems damaging to the school's reputation that this issue gets dug up year after year? Just a suggestion?

[Ann]

it seems to me, as it did then, that the scholarships were a way of attracting families initially when it was trying to build a reputation as a decent school. In other words "Give us a try, we can offer something other schools can't."

It also seems that the school has gained popularity sooner than it expected which is great but is at a bit of a loss as to how to process these scholarships, hence children not being given a place having gained one (a scholarship) and how on earth do you manage a waiting list like that?

People here have mentioned 'lottery' as part of the admissions policy which to me is all a bit no-man's-land, roll your dice and hope you get lucky. Horrible if that's your local school and first choice as it offers no degree of confidence.

Well done Debi. You certainly took on that school when it was not popular and have no doubt been part of the phenomenon which has made the school what it is today.

My other query was that it is unusual for Comprehensives to have three Specialisms. Kingdale now has Music, Sport and Maths? Does that mean that out of the 15% admitted on that basis split them equally ie 5% each? For an over-subscribed school you'd have to be pretty talented to achieve that. I think that might be what Quennie23 was infering? Cherry picking?

[Ann]

Cross posted with your post Debi. My typing is very slow.

[Debi]

I wouldn't say that I have influence at the school, any more than any other parent. Nevertheless, I will certainly feed back the comments made about the website. The site's always being updated, so it's worth checking regularly.

As for whether the scholarships should be dropped now, I'm sure the hundreds of families who applied for them would strenuously disagree. The extra input my son gets from his scholarships are absolutely invaluable and are offering him opportunities that we would never be able to offer him ourselves.

[intexasatthe moment]

Debi it's kind of you to go over this again .

I did find the earlier thread and copied the relevant bit - hoping that you wouldn't need to .

I understand that the number of scholarships initially offered exceeds the 15 % .I just wondered how they choose a replacement candidate when/if a scholarship person drops out .

But this query isn't addressed to you ,as you've said ,you're a parent ,not a representative of the school .

Which is not to say that your comments haven't all be really helpful.

[Debi]

Intexas - thanks for that.

If the situation happens as you describe, the appeals process comes into play at which point numbers can be made up from the waiting list. Click on the admissions tab on the school site then 'admissions appeals' on lhs. You will see a cutoff date of 4th April, with the Appeals Info open evening being held on 5th April. They say they will also be providing more info on the website after that date.

[Dorothy]

If the whole process was abundantly clear - why would there be so many questions? Are we all a little bit dense?

[intexasatthe moment]

I can only assume that the allocation of scholarship places from the waiting list must be according to some score ,the person with the highest aptitude ( though how one measures aptitude as opposed to attainment I don't know .. ) must get the next place .

But ( I'm sure to most people's relief ) I'm giving up the struggle to understand it now .

[prickle]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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> But ( I'm sure to most people's relief ) I'm

> giving up the struggle to understand it now .

Me too, but would be interested to hear from parents of this year's intake about how they get on.

Very best of luck to everyone going through it now - I really hope your child gets into a school in which he/she will thrive.

[Keef]

This is an interesting thread. It does seem that Kingsdale is very selective about who it takes. i don't really understand why state schools get to set all their own admissions policies. I guess that is what comes of making schools like businesses, and head teachers like managers.

[FatherJack]

Intexas...... I suspect there are waiting LISTS at Kingsdale, hence when my friend

visited the school last year to ask where her daughter was on the waiting list, they

asked "which one".

Who knows I still don't know why parents are advised to accept their initial offer while

they apply to waiting lists/appeal. If everyone does this there will be nothing to shake up.

Also how is this priortised?

If a child is offered a school that was a choice, but lower down

list and not really anything like their number 1 or 2, are they

considered equal to a child who received nothing on their application/no school offer????

What I can say is that the PAN system works for children who are applying for a school where an

elder sibling attends and there is a sibling policy in place!!

[Ondine]

FatherJack Wrote:

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>

> Who knows I still don't know why parents are

> advised to accept their initial offer while

> they apply to waiting lists/appeal. If everyone

> does this there will be nothing to shake up.

>

Just to respond from my experience on this specific question - when my elder daughter was in the system 2 years ago she got her 3rd school which we accepted. I assumed this took us out of the system but we then got an offer of her 2nd school a couple of weeks later when the first round of movements had taken place, so we ended up with a real choice.

[murphy]

Parents, understandably are always selfish. When Kingsdale and Willian Penn (now Charter) were awful, parents who lived close to the school, or in Southwark demanded that they should be allowed to choose schools further away or in different boroughs. Now that they have good reputations the next set of parents are demanding they must be able to go to their closest school or that only kids in the same borough should have priority.

Kingsdale used to be abysmal, a few years ago it was known by kids as "the asylum" because such a large percentage of kids who went there were asylum seekers and the school always had free places. It used to get kids coming from all over Lambeth and Southwark and plenty of problems between Peckham v Brixton kids.

One of the great strategies employed by Kingsdale was to target schools like Goodrich. It had lots of middle class parents who were unable to get into Charter as they lived too far away. A full on charm offensive was launched to persuade these parents to choose Kingsdale. Marketing music scholarships was a neat trick that favoured the middle class, who were far more likely to have kids already taking music lessons. Once they had the Goodrich parents on board the school went in search of other enclaves of middle class kids such as Honour Oak and Brockley, again with a lot of success.

At Kingsdale open day presentations it was predominantly middle class children and parents who were put on stage to sell the benefits of the school, scholarships, small class sizes in core subjects etc. So a few years down the line Kingsdale's strategy has really worked. Investment in buildings, new teachers, scholarships etc means they have a much more mixed intake aligned with good teaching and parent support means they get pretty good results and are highly oversubscribed. The scholarships mean they are able to cream off some pretty able kids and the knock on effect is that even if your kid doesn't get a scholarship it is still a school you would want to send your kids to.

Kingsdale chose it's startegy because it was the best way of getting a "mixed" intake but ensuring a reasonable proportion of middle class kids. Charter chose its method - walking distance to school - because they knew they would get a lot of middle class kids from Dulwich and Herne Hill together with the kids from Denmark Hill Estate.

To those who say Kingsdale are "stealing" talent from other local schools - on the face of it yes, but before they introduced their policies the answer was no, kids simply chose schools miles away from here or moved into Kent. As the local demographic changes and families with children decide to stay, the local schools are all getting better.

God knows how many millions have been invested in Kingsdale and Charter, there are plenty of debates to be had about how they choose their intake, but whereas before no parents would touch either, both are now very good secondary schools. To people who only consider a school to be good if they are getting a 100% baccalaureate pass rate, you live in inner London, it won't happen, move to Kent.