Secondary School Allocations

[Carrie]

Cora

Secondary school children tend to make their own way to school - do a couple of trial runs with them over the summer holiday so they know the route and then let them go on their own at the beginning of term - will do absolutely nothing for their street cred if they are seen with their parents on the first day!

[Cora]

Ah, I've obviously got alot of growing up to do!! Eldest is only 6, can't imagine just packing him off to make his own way!!...

[MGolden]

tiddles Wrote:

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> gosh I feel so sorry for all stress and

> disappointments caused to families at this time of

> year. It is not much help right now whilst you are

> still reeling, but many people do get somewhere

> they want on the second round (and later too). It

> is dreadful that your children are put in this

> position as well.

>

> Get on that phone and take up all the offers of

> help that any councillors offer

>

> out of interest, how did people get on with

> hassling the local authorities last year when they

> were in a similar predicament?

> very best wishes

Last year our son didn't get offered any of the six schools we had put on our list. We live in Crystal Palace so from a distance perspective we were applying for schools in Croydon, Southwark, Lambeth and Wandsworth - so much for where you pay your council tax determining where your children are educated. We live in the LA of Croydon and declined the 'school' offered to us by Croydon. They said that the original school offered would still have places available in September so not accepting it was not exactly jeopardising our son's chance of getting educated. Sending him there would of course!! Anyway, we appealed to five of the six schools on the list although we didn't really have grounds for appeal for any of them. Our son was offered a place at Kingsdale at the end of March 2010 and I have posted on here before how happy he is there. It wasn't our first choice but it will be for our second child. Some of our friends children didn't get any of their choices but have found their children to be happy at the schools they have ended up going to.

[minder]

I really feel for the parents in the story in the South London Press today.

It seems all the parents who live literally two minutes walk from Kingsdale (on the Bowen estate) did not get a place.

Kingsdale states that distance from the school plays no part in the admissions process. It said when the school was oversubscribed preference would be given to kids in care, those with abilities in music, maths and sport or youngsters with brothers or sisters at Kingsdale.

It seems to me that if you don't play an instrument, are not so good at maths and not the sporty type then that's it.

[Debi]

See this link for info re Kingsdale's waiting list and appeals.

http://www.kingsdale.southwark.sch.uk/admissions_appeal.html

They say: Please be advised that the school will be holding an Appeals Information Evening for entry into Year 7 for September 2011 on Tuesday 5th April 2011 at 7pm. The purpose of this evening is to demystify the appeals process, whilst providing helpful information and useful advice to assist parents who may be considering lodging an Appeal under the Schools Standards & Framework Act 1998.

[Dorothy]

This is what is so difficult to get one's head round with Kingsdale.

How can it get away with being a selective school?

It is a *state* non-grammar, school.

So how come it is able to select a part of its intake like this?

[Debi]

I think you must be misunderstanding something here. Any school that is a foundation school or academy etc is able to set its own admissions policy. Kingsdale is not selective in the way you imply. Most of the admissions criteria are the same or very similar as other schools with the exception of not using distance from the school as a factor.

The full admissions policy is here: http://www.kingsdale.southwark.sch.uk/PDF/Admissions-Policy-2010.pdf

As you can see, they are committed to ensuring the intake represents the full range of ability and reflects the diversity of the community it serves.

[BB100]

Dorothy Wrote:

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> This is what is so difficult to get one's head

> round with Kingsdale.

>

> How can it get away with being a selective

> school?

>

> It is a *state* non-grammar, school.

>

> So how come it is able to select a part of its

> intake like this?

As mentioned previously, it's not a matter of 'getting away with it', it was more a case of 'having to' at the time. But it obviously doesn't need to anymore.

[Debi]

For some reason the links here default to the Kingsdale home page. Please click on the admissions tab or the quick link at the top of the home page to see full details of the admissions criteria, appeals process etc. All the points raised here in the forum are answered in full there.

[minder]

Debi - in a previous post you mention the million pound houses surrounding Kingsdale and their impact on admissions. Personally, I don't think if you are in a million pound house you will be sending your child to the local comp when just up the road there are numerous private choices.

Of course Kingsdale is being selective in not using distance as one of its criteria - trying to "demystify" this at their appeals evening won't change that but there's nothing parents can do if Kingsdale have set that is there?

Also how can they reflect the diversity of the community they serve, when lots of children living just around the corner are excluded? Aren't they part of the community?

[Dorothy]

Alright then Debi, I'll put it another way, this area is not properly served by non-selective state secondary schools. The scholarships at Kingsdale are ... for what purpose? It is no comfort to many parents, who just want their children to go to a reasonable local school, that Kingsdale is a Foundation school and can therefore set its own admissions criteria. I would like my daughter to go to Kingsdale as it is our nearest secondary school. She has a younger brother so I'd like them both to go, actually. Its not looking likely, though.

[minder]

BB100 - just curious as to why did the Head of Kingsdale went off to Lewisham when he couldn't fill his school with the locals?

Why didn't he stay in Southwark? Probably because Lewisham is served by the P4 bus route which is still a good 10-15 minute walk to Kingsdale from the nearest P4 drop off at the South Circular.

Then again I think there's another bus which stops near the South Circular, which comes from the East Dulwich area. The trouble really with Kingsdale is that it is not easy to get to on public transport.

Kingsdale is really isolated at the top end of the borough of Southwark.

[Debi]

Minder - actually, you're wrong. Whatever people may think about this, the truth is that many people are making the choice for their children to go to Kingsdale as opposed to going private, which they could afford. That's what hsppens when a school is as good as Kingsdale is, with constantly improving results, amazing resources and a wonderful and highly committed management team and staff.

Dorothy - I feel really sorry for those families who live in the estate behind the school and who didn't get in - as I do for anyone in that position. But the fact is that they - and you - have the same chance as anyone else. Why do you assume your children won't get in?

Edited to add re transport that Kingsdale run their own bus service with pick ups and drop offs at various primary schools.

[intexasatthe moment]

Kingsdale is a Foundation school and can therefore set its own admissions criteria - just like all the secondary schools in Southwark .

They are all Academies ,Faith or Foundation schools and they can all decide their own admissions policies .

In line with Southwark's and national guidance - which as you can see from what we have in Southwark allows for plenty of variation .

If they want to change them they can do ,after consultation .Which ,in my experience ,if you're a parent ,means no more than informing you about what they intend to do .

I think admissions policies that give priority to geographical location of applicant are very tricky .

Kingsdale's location and that policy meant that for years it had a very strange intake ,not at all representative of a cross section of society . I think Kingsdale's admission policy which if I understand it correctly ( banding ,low percentage of scholorships ,lottery etc ) is really hard on parents and children applying for the school ,but is a pragmatic solution .

Though it must make appealing and managing a waiting list very difficult .

It's hard to understand it as a parent and hard to know how it could be monitored .

Though as I've said before ,I find banding hard to get my head round .

Is it banding of the particular group that applied in the year or banding related to some national or local scoring ?

If a place becomes vacant because someone in band 1 has dropped out can it only be offered to someone whose scores for banding would make them a band 1 person ?

I expect it's all perfectly clear to those with bigger brains than me .

But it does seem to me to be a very complex situation where so many schools can all have such different admissions policies. I really don't know the answer - good schools for all doesn't seem to happen .

Maybe we're getting there ?

[sillywoman]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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>

> But it does seem to me to be a very complex

> situation where so many schools can all have such

> different admissions policies. I really don't know

> the answer - good schools for all doesn't seem to

> happen .

Except with The Charter whose academic results are still way above Kingsdale and manages to achieve this on a purely community catchment criteria - no jiggery-pokery needed. Just flying the flag - I know we're not the 'buzz' school this year.

[intexasatthe moment]

Yes I agree ,Charter sounds fantastic and ,like Kingsdale was a terrible school ( in it's previous existence as William Penn ) that no local people wanted to send their children to .

Do you think it's catchement area is comparable though ? I feel it's in quite a uniformly middle class area where parents might be tempted to go private but would try state .

Kingsdale has always seemed out on a limb to me ,close to upper middle class households ( well ,even more expensive houses than those near Charter ) where parents more likely to go private and the Kingsdale estate .

I don't think Kingsdale is guilty of jiggery -pokery at all ,just trying to get a balanced intake .

[Lukedaisy]

Please can someone expalain to me. Kingsdale along with some other state schools in Southwark, Waverley girls for instance, have always had a bad reputation. Have they changed ? and if so , since when ?

[prickle]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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> Do you think it's catchement area is comparable

> though ? I feel it's in quite a uniformly middle

> class area where parents might be tempted to go

> private but would try state .

> Kingsdale has always seemed out on a limb to me

> ,close to upper middle class households ( well

> ,even more expensive houses than those near

> Charter ) where parents more likely to go private

> and the Kingsdale estate .

>

> I don't think Kingsdale is guilty of jiggery

> -pokery at all ,just trying to get a balanced

> intake .

Although its catchment is small, Charter has a very mixed intake, covering some large council estates off Dog Kennel and Denmark Hills as well as Dulwich Village. It's a challenge for the school to ensure that these children from diverse backgrounds all do well academically. The diverse social mix also enriches the school culturally and it certainly does not feel like an exclusively middle class enclave.

As for Kingsdale, I was alarmed to see that they have added mathematics to music and sports as subjects for scholarships. Surely selecting on high achievement for maths takes them dangerously close (or even over) to being a selective school?

[Debi]

Let me throw a bit more light on distance not being part of Kingsdale's criteria. When this was brought in it was because of an exisitng situation that was neither representative nor fair - either for the school or for any of the families. Children from further away who had put the school top of the list were not being offered a place, whereas children who lived closer but had not put it top of their list were getting offers. This didn't suit anyone and you can't blame the school for a) wanting to ensure a fairer deal for familites AND b) preferring to have children at the school who were really committed to being there. Hence the decision to remove distance from the school from the criteria. As I said, not a perfect solution but hard to see a betteer one.

Intexas - you said 'If they want to change them they can do ,after consultation .Which ,in my experience ,if you're a parent ,means no more than informing you about what they intend to do .' Kingsdale's reputationm for meaningful and transparent consultation is extremely good and deservedly so.

Sillywoman - Charter is also an excellent school. I would never dream of putting it down and don't see why any Charter parents should feel the need to score points over Kingsdale. As is obvious from this thread and many others, there is a severe shortage of good co-ed secondary non-faith schools. The presence of both Kingsdale and Charter should be celebrated. I can't see any point in those loyal to either denigrating the other. It's not a competition.

[westof]

sillywoman Wrote:

> Except with The Charter whose academic results are

> still way above Kingsdale and manages to achieve

> this on a purely community catchment criteria - no

> jiggery-pokery needed. Just flying the flag - I

> know we're not the 'buzz' school this year.

If we're comparing, it's interesting that Kingsdale improved without changing it's name, like most of the schools in Southwark which became academies or rebuilt...

I think Charter is excellent btw, and it does have a genuinely mixed intake.

[marcos]

I would agree with Debi that we shouldn't be denigrating or praising one school over another.

The whole admissions system seems very confusing and even with the previous comprehensive explanation it still seems diffcult to completely understand admissions policy and i feel that their is a lack of transparency.

We have children in Kingsdale and are very happy with it, and know parents who have kids in Charter who are equally happy with it.

It just does seem that if you can't afford to, or have scruples about going private, their just aren't enough places for everyone.

I have heard that from Goodrich School this year that many kids this year are going to Sydenham Girls or Forest Hill Boys, some of whom wanted Kingsdale or Charter as their first choice.

I suppose I might feel agrieved if I knew that children from Lewisham or further away were getting places over 'local' Southwark children.

However I do know that if you are prepared to wait you will probably get your choice of school in the end (my sons friend who is in year 9 moved recently from Harris Academy Peckham to Charter).

[marcos]

And sorry about errors in the possessive pronoun in the previous post, I need to preview first!!

[westof]

It is a bit concerning that the quote in the SLP has Kingsdale's oversubscription criteria as in care, siblings and ability in music, maths or sport - with no mention at all of banding or random allocation.

Was that just shoddy reporting? Or a hint that they are moving to more selection next year? Mind you, I don't think I could sum up the admissions policy in one sentence.

[Debi]

Shoddy reporting - a quick lift from the website minus any context. The real policy is far more complex, as you say, which is why I posted the link and suggest people check the school's website for the full picture.

It's sad that SLP should give such a misleading impression in this article. People are feeling bad enough without being given extra fuel from their local paper with reporting that is anyway far from balanced and accurate. If Kingsdale intended to make changes to their policy, parents would be fully consulted. They certainly wouldn't find out this info from SLP.

[sillywoman]

westof Wrote:

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>

> If we're comparing, it's interesting that

> Kingsdale improved without changing it's name,

> like most of the schools in Southwark which became

> academies or rebuilt...

>

> I think Charter is excellent btw, and it does have

> a genuinely mixed intake.

The Charter didn't change its name either westof. It was never William Penn or anything else. The school that is there today has only ever been The Charter. The buildings though were once used by the old William Penn school.

Debi - no competition or denigration intended, just a bit of balance.