Dulwich Hamlets Football Club licence review

[Vik]

On what grounds?

[ratty]

"I would hate to see the football club suffer but equally no neighbours of a football club should have problems from a badly run venue and all the risks that entails."

We don't!

[aspidistra]

Surely the review should happen once it is determined what exactly took place inside (?)

[Keef]

Very good point!

Also interesting that ratty is the only one on here who has actually stated that he IS a neighbour of the club, and has no concerns whatsoever, about being disturbed.

But hey, lets close them down, on the off chance that someone could, possibly, at some stage down the line, get kept awake a night.

[lje1985]

I think the key point here less about keeping people awake at night and more about the 14 year old boy who got shot - allegedly by a 13 year old, and a young man who was stabbed to death.

I think we need to know more about what happened - including whether underage people carrying firearms were admitted and served alcohol.

[aspidistra]

I'm less concerned about who was served alcohol, and more concerned about firearms on the premises. There have been hearsay reports that the initial gun incident took place inside (leading to subsequent evacuation) but as yet there is no formal evidence on the table as to the sequence of events. Hence my view that this needs to be addressed before any review.

[Keef]

Of course things went very wrong that night, but I just think that to blame the bar staff and the club is insane.

If you were working behind a bar for a party, and suddenly there were gunshots, I'd take my hat off to you if you could think straight, and act in the most sensible way.

Personally, I think I'd be shitting myself!

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

WKS

[DJKillaQueen]

Most premises where fights involving knives have broken out call the Police in every case and then do what then can to stop anyone from getting hurt. If shots were fired inside DH and DH did not call Police immediately etc, then yes, there are questions they need to answer. But without thorough searches on the door, including the use of metal detectors (and left's face it - how many bars, clubs do that) then it is ridiculous to suggest that DH are responsible for letting someone smuggle a gun or knife even onto the premises.

This is the first time anything as serious as this has happened at DH.

Yes there have been issues before with breach of licence on things like shutters, opening hours etc and they alone are enough to see a licence revoked if not addressed, but the club can not be blamed for the behaviour of a few guests at a one off event. What matters in any review is the action taken by staff as the course of events unfolded (events that could happen at ANY bar/ club/ party anywhere, but thankfully don't too often). Some training may be required or advice on the use of door staff etc.....but to take away the licence just wouldn't make sense.

On the supply of alcohol to minors. The law is very clear. A member of staff needs only to sell alcohol to an adult who then gives it to a minor to be in trouble and ANY member of staff on the premises is legally required to confiscate alcohol from any minor they see in posession of it, or ask any minor they believe to be intoxicated to leave the premises. Also minors need to be accompanied by a responsible adult (a standard condition of all alcohol premises licensing) if a bar selling alcohol is in use. This applies as equally to private members clubs as it does to a high street bar. Again only DH can answer as to whether that was an issue on that particular evening, or in general.

[Ridgley]

I totally agree with DJKQ DH should not loose there license over this rare incident. In regards to fire arms most clubs and venues do search there cliental at the door what you tend to find is a group of people who carry?s fire arm or weapons tend to leave it in there car or hide it near by because they know they will be searched so if anything happens they will go and retrieve it.

I know a few bouncers and that is what they have witnessed in there line of work there are now saying there is a trend that in order to smuggle weapons in they are asking girl friends or lady friends to conceal it in there handbag as not all bouncers search female handbags.

[James Barber]

The licensing committee will hear evidence from the Police about the recent incident and whether they think this licensed premise is well run and safe or not.

A court case can take a VERY long time before it takes place. Any licensed premise should be reviewed urgently after such serious incidents. Failing to undertake a review could mean further avoidable incidents. Equally if the venue is considered safe then such a venue does'nt have to wait a long time for its practives and management to be confirmed as acceptable.

[James Barber]

The licence review will take place 10am Monday 28 March at the Town Hall.

The papers for licensing sub-committee can be found here: http://moderngov.southwarksites.com/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=3757&T=10.

The report appears to be missing several comments that I was copied. Hopefully the report can be rectified before the sub-committee meets. I'm hopeful the sub-committee will make a set of wise decisions. The Police have made very damning comments about how the current licence has been followed. It's clear some significant changes are required at this venue.

[DJKillaQueen]

That is interesting reading and shows just why I and you and others strongly argued the importance of licensing requirements being followed in that previous thread about DH and noise, some time back. At the time of that thread, Nick the licence holder didn't even know what the details of his licence were, arguing he had different licensing hours for the bar on another thread (and deliberately misleading an event promoter who uses the venue in the process) to those that he actually did. Soon after he applied for a variation to extend the bar licence! Doesn't say very much for the competance of the licence holder.

[James Barber]

Curiously comments submitted by Cllr Stephen Govier are not in the report. He CC'd me the emails.

He clearly appears to know his stuff about licensed premises.

I spoke to him last night about cross ward issues. I hadn't realised Lambeth licensing sub-committees meet in the evening rather than SOuthwark daytime making it hard to non licensees to attend.

[DJKillaQueen]

That is a good point....I can't ever recall attending a licensing committee hearing outside of daytime hours in Southwark.

The other issue I think is having a bar open at an under 18' event. the report doesn't make clear if it was open but I'm assuming it was. The law is clear about required adult supervision of minors in licensed premises operating with a bar. I wonder how many of those young people were accompanied by parents or supervising adults.

[Weegee]

Hi James

Has there been any news about this mornings review meeting?

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The licensing committee will hear evidence from

> the Police about the recent incident and whether

> they think this licensed premise is well run andR

> safe or not.

>

> A court case can take a VERY long time before it

> takes place. Any licensed premise should be

> reviewed urgently after such serious incidents.

> Failing to undertake a review could mean further

> avoidable incidents. Equally if the venue is

> considered safe then such a venue does'nt have to

> wait a long time for its practives and management

> to be confirmed as acceptable.

[Sue]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> That is interesting reading and shows just why I

> and you and others strongly argued the importance

> of licensing requirements being followed in that

> previous thread about DH and noise, some time

> back. At the time of that thread, Nick the licence

> holder didn't even know what the details of his

> licence were, arguing he had different licensing

> hours for the bar on another thread (and

> deliberately misleading an event promoter who uses

> the venue in the process) to those that he

> actually did. Soon after he applied for a

> variation to extend the bar licence! Doesn't say

> very much for the competance of the licence

> holder.

xxxxxxx

Yet again, DJKQ, please get your facts right.

If you are referring to me, Nick did not "deliberately mislead" me.

He made a genuine mistake about what was covered by the wording when the licence application was made, and genuinely thought that he had applied for, and got, a late licence.

As soon as it was brought to his attention that in fact he had not, he immediately took steps to rectify things.

ETA: I think you owe him an apology in view of the tone and content of your post.

[DJKillaQueen]

TBF Sue, he chose to completely ingnore the points being made about poor enforcement of his licence for which he is responsible (although I understand that some effort was made afterwards to adhere to the terms) and it might have been wise for him to read his licence before posting that I didn't know what I was talking about for example. Did he come back afterwards and conceed that he had made an error? I'm afraid not. I have nothing to apologise for! I run a licensed premise myself and we never get into the kind of trouble Nick and DH have - because we enforce every aspect of our licence. You can't pick and choose which bits you enforce.

Obviously I don't know him in the way you do but he doesn't seem to be competant to me in observing the law in regards to licensing. It's been one thing after another and recent trajic events have shown, the law regarding minors, bars and consumption of alcohol weren't observed. You don't have to sell alcohol to minors to be in trouble. If you sell alcohol to an adult who then passes it onto a minor, you are responsible. If you see minors drinking alcohol or intoxicated, you are responsible. It is a criminal offence for which he and all his staff on duty are equally liable (hence the strong Police recommendation for review). I certainly do not want to see DH lose their licence. It's a crucial part of revenue raising for a struggling Football Club. But there does need to be some retraining of him and his staff to make sure they protect themselves as far as possible from getting into these situations in the first place.

[Sue]

And you, DJKQ, are intimately familiar with all the details of the "one thing after another" (what?) and "recent trajic (sic) events" are you?

ETA: And yet again, you choose to ignore my actual point (ie he did not deliberately mislead).

[DJKillaQueen]

That's not the issue. DH had several compaints regarding non enforcement of their licence - use of shutters being one of them which is where you had an issue and seemed to think that part of the licence shouldn't apply on certain nights (and have had a grudge against me ever since for insisting that it applies at ALL times - they are Southwark's rules not mine). If DH had taken their licence seriously we wouldn't be having any of these conversations now.

He did mislead because he didn't know or bother check his own licence when presented with the facts by several posters. I call not knowing the details of your own licence incompetant. And it wasn't just bar hours and noise and shutters, it was also parties going on beyond the 1.30am licensed opening hours. Did he accidently make a mistake with regards to those breaches too?

He could have posted afterwards and conceeded his error but he didn't. You can not argue with breaches of licence, nor can you argue with breaking the law with regards to minors and alcohol on the premises (and yes the details of that are published and in the public domain from the Police recommendations). The review is happening for good reason under those recommendations.

[Sue]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

where you

> had an issue and seemed to think that part of the

> licence shouldn't apply on certain nights (and

> have had a grudge against me ever since for

> insisting that it applies at ALL times

xxxxxxx

Eh?

What on earth are you talking about? When have I ever suggested our gigs should be some kind of special case?

ETA: I suggested you come and say hello at our stage at the Aquarius Festival - which you didn't - how is that "having a grudge against you"???

ETA: The trouble is, DJKQ, you may sometimes make some good points, but when you post inaccurate information, unfortunately it throws doubt on the veracity of the rest of what you post.

[ianr]

I went to the sub-committee meeting, and was the sole member of the public attending. There was also a reporter for the South London Press.

The outcome was a revision of conditions of the licence, which will doubtless eventually appear on the council web site. I'll add a bit more when I'm more awake.

[candp]

Thanks Ianr.

Sue, am I right in understanding that you play gigs at DHFC and presumably some of the venues owned by the fella who owns the Victoria Inn and Actress? Strange that you are often defending/promoting them... Not to jump into yours and DJKQ's row but you did suggest it was too hot in the summer to have the windows closed at gigs on the noise pollution thread where Nick argued that black was white for a while.

DHFC are hopeless neighbours and supporting them as a community club only applies if they act like members of the community. A *charitable* explanation is that they didn't understand their licence when it came to the hours they could serve alcohol. Confusion over minors' access to alcohol and understanding what a closed shutter looks like are harder to explain away.

[Sue]

The Goose Is Out! has gigs at DHFC and Upstairs at The Mag, and a singaround at the CPT. We also run some or all of the music at various local festivals and street parties.

We have nothing to do with the Victoria Inn or the Actress, so I have no idea what you are intending to imply by your comment, which I take exception to.

The Actress is one of my locals, I live round the corner from it, I like it and I say so on forum threads - is that some kind of crime? To the best of my knowledge, they don't even have live music there or at any of the other pubs owned by the same people!

(Edited to add: We used to have gigs at the EDT, who asked us there originally and then kicked us out when they turned the upstairs into a short-lived Private Members Club. However this is not run by the same people, and in any case I have certainly not bigged up the EDT on the forum given the way they treated us at the time.)

My suggestion that it was too hot in the summer to have the shutters (not the windows, I believe) closed at our gigs was based on fact. If you ask anybody who was at our Eliza Carthy gig on 2 July last year they will tell you that people were practically fainting with heat despite, if I recall correctly, trying both opening all the windows and also trying the air conditioning.

I also, if memory serves, said that the venue with the shutters down resembled the inside of an airraid shelter.

I have no recollection of saying that some sort of exception should be made in our case, but if you can find a statement that I did, I am of course happy to admit that my memory is crap.

[DJKillaQueen]

This is precisely what you posted Sue with regards to closed windows and shutters

Putting the shutters down makes the room seem like being in some kind of air raid shelter or something. It's horrendous from the inside.

I have every sympathy with people who are being disturbed by noise, but can we keep some kind of proportion?

How often does this disturbance actually happen?

We hold Goose gigs at DHFC once a month, and I would be mortified if I thought they were disturbing people living nearby in any way.

We spent a summer looking for a suitable local venue after we were kicked out of the EDT without warning, we were lucky enough to find DHFC, and we've spent over two years building up the Goose.

We started out because we really wanted to bring folk music back to East Dulwich, and we bring really top artists here. If we have to close the shutters we might as well give up.

In other words, your gig should be exempt from some of the terms of the license? The license has never said, only close windows and shutters at 10.30 as means of controlling noise pollution. They are a requirement every evening that the club opens. The club does have air conditioning...it is referred to in the licence that it be used.