Amending working hours to accommodate childcare - why is it almost always the women running around?

[Fuschia]

new mother Wrote:

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>

> Fuschia, Did you ever SEE this spotless house or

> was it just referred to in conversation? (!)

no... it is true that usually when he has been in charge things are very tidy... but he achieves this partly by not letting them get any toys out and partly by not also working remotely, bf baby, cleaning bathroom, driving car for school pick up/activities, washing etc etc

[Ruth_Baldock]

I've been thinking about this, and I didn't even realise how much I had changed my working hours rather than my OH. My MIL looks after Cheeky S, and on the occasions she's needed him to be picked up early- will always call me- despite the fact that I don't drive and by the time I get from Russel Sq to East Dulwich (by bus) I rarely end up picking him up earlier than the normal time anyway. A while back, I told her that it made SO much more sense to call OH (who works for himself) as he can cycle back to ours in 15 minutes and then it's a 5 minute drive to theirs. So she does that now. He always looks so triumphant when I get home and he's done the bath/milk/bed routine and I do admit, I am always utterly shocked that he's managed it :/

When I became pregnant, it was almost an unspoken assumption that my job would be the one to suffer. I was doing a PhD and we both knew I wouldn't be able to finish it because of various childcare sacrifices, and that's whats happened.

But on the flip-side, OH wants to totally quit work and be a stay at home Dad and it fills me with dread. To make the kind of money he does to cover the mortgage, I'd have to have 3 or 4 jobs (not kidding) and I feel SICK thinking about it. We'd be screwed if this happened and we ever decided to have another baby (again) because I wouldn't be able to take much mat. leave at all.

But, in reality, don't think this will happen.

[Ruth_Baldock]

"we are having kids a lot older, perhaps we've had more opportunity to climb the ladder and taste freedom...

whereas our mums were torn away from (work) life much earlier on?"

I know I'm not the 'norm' here (I am probably about to offend everyone here, goodbye forum, I loved you! It was good whilst it lasted...) but I am probably one of the youngest here at 25, I had Cheeky S when I was 24. I worked full-time for about...3 months before becoming pregnant. Then I went on mat leave, came back, am pregnant again. My contract in my current job expires in June, when I'll be leaving anyway to have Baby 2 and it is very, very doubtful that I will be returing to work, but this is certainly not my choice. I have a First for my BA and an MA, and a year's worth of lecturing at Goldsmiths, but I don't know what I want to *do*, workwise. Not lecture, thats for sure. When the children are both in school, I'll be another humanities graduate but will have been out of the labour market for 4+ years. NO idea what will happen, it depresses me to the point of howling with tears to think about it.

I love my baby, and love In Utero Baby just as much already, but I never thought things would happen the way they had and I do sort of resent my husband (6 years older than me, been in his industry for life basically- and been working since he was 17, so he's a proper pro now...no Uni though) because if he took 4 years out, it wouldn't be NEARLY as hard for him to return. This does NOT reflect my Mother's experience, who was on mat leave with me for 10 weeks, and 6 months for each of the rest of us. She told me she would have gone stark raving mad at home (I used to be offended by this, but am not anymore!) and I can see why...if you never intended/wanted to be a SAHM, it can be a very lonely, bitter and resentful experience and very often it's a decision which is taken out of your hands.

I think I have gone off-topic now and I am starting to depress myself. Off to scarf down krispy kremes, nom nom nom.

[Ridgley]

Yes I can relate to this very well, when my daughters was younger I worked in the public sector as this was the only jobs that was flexible to me at the time it does tend to be women that round around although I did have help from my other half but it was all down to me.

[littleEDfamily]

RB, I understand you completely. You're not being offensive. I am lucky enough to have as close to the best of both worlds as a person could have. I hated my first maternity leave; I was so lonely at home and I felt so isolated and bored. I just couldn't do the talking about kids all day to other zombie mums (not their fault they were zombies, of course). And then when I went back to work, I was desperate to prove a point, got promoted in a couple of months but was a complete loose cannon - the childcare was never good enough, I never had enough time to devote work, I was convinced everyone thought I was a slacker and the pressure I used to thrive on made me aggressive. If I had been able to let go a little (and let hubby take more responsibility for things, Keef does have a point, much as it pains me to admit it), it may have worked out, but it didn't, so I left and started working for myself. It has meant very stressful times and I struggle to get things done from home, and there's still some isolation (hence my forum addition), but all in all, I shouldn't complain.

PS Just to qualify my comment about 'not wanting to be 'just a mum' - I think it's a philosophical thing - I'm just not comfortable with the concept of someone's life just being for another person (or people), even temporarily. And I used to get so cross when kids would treat their mums (not always SAHMs) as if they were just their servants. I always wanted to do something professionally that would make my kids proud of me. I wish I could feel fulfilled by motherhood alone, but alas not...

[Keef]

Keef does have a point, much as it pains me to admit it)

Steady on, you've agreed with me a couple of times recently. I'll have to say something you really hate soon, in order to redress the balance. ;-)

I genuinely don't understand why it pains you so much to admit I have a point on someting, have I wronged you in a former life or something?

[littleEDfamily]

He heh... no you've not wronged me, but, but I have on occasion disagreed with you. But I still like having you around...

PS edited to add: it's painful to admit you've brought something on yourself is what I meant...

[Keef]

Well, the world, and on a smaller level, the family room, would be a dull place if we all agreed all the time. I like this section of the forum, there are some interesting conversations. I just wish a few more of the dads from the lounge would get involved in this section a bit more.

[womanofdulwich]

why do so many people choose to have their children 2 years apart anyway? it is so expensive for childcare- and such hard work! there are 4 years between mine and i could not have afforded childcare for 2 full time pre schoolers. I know money is not everything but even if i had not gone back to work and been a SAHM I would not have managed with 2 so young to look after.

[Polly D]

Keef Wrote:

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> Well, the world, and on a smaller level, the

> family room, would be a dull place if we all

> agreed all the time. I like this section of the

> forum, there are some interesting conversations. I

> just wish a few more of the dads from the lounge

> would get involved in this section a bit more.

Quite, I love to hear the dads' perspective.

Ah I've got so much to say on this topic and can't quite find the time to do so properly. In the meantime, the book I mentioned in the previously-related thread is this one (and I should say I work for the publishers but am not trying to drum up publicity at all but am finding it a very good read indeed and is relevant to this thread):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shattered-Modern-Motherhood-Illusion-Equality/dp/product-description/1846553970

[Saila]

i'm living in the hope that, yes our generation has to work hard as we are in a transition from the past to the future. But it's our generation that's bringing up the next generation of Dads. Let's hope we succeed in passing on the right messages.

We reap what we sow?

[Keef]

I imagine there is a lot of truth in that Salia. However, society as a whole (the machine) needs to change it's attitudes too...

[zeban]

It's definitely society that needs to change but I think you can probably try to sow the seeds at the same time.

[reneet]

Saila Wrote:

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> i'm living in the hope that, yes our generation

> has to work hard as we are in a transition from

> the past to the future. But it's our generation

> that's bringing up the next generation of Dads.

> Let's hope we succeed in passing on the right

> messages.

>

> We reap what we sow?

I really don't think its only the Dad's that need to change, its us as well. Why do we feel guilty about wanting to work, its perfectly normal that we want to be something else as well as being mums. Its interesting how the government is now claiming that they are trying to help women ( the 1 in 4 in the boardroom aspiration), don't get me wrong i don't think its a crap idea. I am currently very bitter that I might miss a promotion I have been working on for a whole year just because the post is coming up a month before I go on maternity leave. I know they should not refuse to promote me on that basis but they will and I will not be able to prove that that why they did it.

I guess I feel that if I am successful in my career then I can justify leaving my daughter in childcare for so long. Yes if Mr. R and I both worked part time, then we could live a happier life, but that will mean downgrading on our lifestyle no more music, drama and swimming lessons and all the other unnecessary things i sign my daughter up for no more organic meat whatever. I might sound shallow right now but I am trying to be realistic, I mean someone has to take care of the child and if it was both of us then our lifestyle will definitely take a hit. Funny thing is when we will be comfortable enough to make that step then they will be all grown up and don't really need us any more.

I do not believe there ever will be equality, the only time we can achieve equality is if men can carry the pregnancy and can breastfeed.

Sorry for ranting and going seriously off topic, again.

[zeban]

No offence Reneet, I'm genuinely curious, if you were working for a promotion for a year and you really want to hang onto your lifestyle why did you choose to have another child right now? I'm not criticising your decision I'm just saying it sounds a bit contradictory to what you seem to actually want at this moment in time.

Personally I think it is working practices and attitudes that need to change to allow for flexible working hours for BOTH parents in general in the early years. And to do away with women having to re-enter the workforce at a lower level which often happens when women have taken time out to bring up children. There shouldn't be such a worry about taking time out.

I certainly don't think that such a pessimistic view of there never being equality until men can give birth and breastfeed is useful. Men and women are different- is that so bad? I think it's a wonderful, powerful thing that we as women can do. Men have been jealous of the fact that women can give birth for centuries- it's why I think alot of misogyny arose in the first place IMO. They had to turn it around to seem like a negative thing.

I also think what it is that makes you feel successful in your career is very telling of society as a whole Reenet. Society generally measures a persons success in terms of status and money which seems to be your definition too. That's one of my problems though with society. I think it is unfair on everyone, both men and women, to have such a narrow definition of what it is to be a success.

Some women and men don't even feel empowered at all in work. And there are some Mums dying to go part time or give up work but genuinely can't afford to. Ultimately I think it would be good if everyone got their way!

[citizenED]

Loads of interesting comments on here and I would like to say that as a father of two boys I am hoping that by being as hands-on as I possibly can be with a full time job I am hoping very much to educate mine in how to be the next generation of good dads. Saila's point is a good one. Must admit that when I was in college I thought a great deal more equality with regard household/childrearing would be with us in our generation, but then I was at college with a bunch of ardent feminists and liberal-minded blokes so, at that stage the future looked respectably gender balanced. But that was not taking into account of such worldly things as the nuts and bolts of having a job, the nuances of building a career and the reality shock of changing nappies and broken sleep. So I guess it takes more than a generation - and every time I hear of dad who doesn't change nappies or see so many mums (rather than dads) in the park with their kids at the weekend I feel we still have so much more to do.

[womanofdulwich]

i would not judge it by how many women are inthe park at weekends with children. i used to do this while partner stayed at home and did jobs around hte house- we used to take it in turn.

[littleEDfamily]

There is a lot of awareness of women and their 'level' in the workplace post-children, and although of course it is wrong to automatically demote any woman simply for having had kids, in some ways, I wish it were more acceptable for women (and men!) to take a temporarily 'lower' role while they still have small children. I know of course, financially, this is not an option for many for whom a different sort of job would mean a paycut they could not withstand, but in retrospect it might have been better for me to have taken a bit of a back step for a while and then ramped up when I felt I was ready. For most people (men and women) it's like career suicide if you admit to needing to take a step back or even just plateau for a while - it certainly was in the organisations I worked in, and I think it is the pressure to demonstrate that you can do it all that leads to a lot of additional stress in those early years.

But then, on the other hand, sometimes I think we're all a pack of whinge-bags and we need to harden up!

[womanofdulwich]

I dont think this jsut applies to small children- last till they are early teens- or longer!!But what must it be like to have given up your career for 18 years and then try and "get back in".

[zeban]

I don't think it's just work that can give Mums a sense of self esteem and purpose other than just being a care giver.

My Mum was a stay at home Mum but she also studied a part time degree which took her 6 years to complete, and did a lot of voluntary work which is actually often a lot more satisfying than an awful lot of paid work! By the time she went back to work she ended up doing something completely different to before.

I guess it's different if you really enjoyed your job before and don't want to let go, but if you're happy to try something else it might be easier to go back into the work force because changing careers is a bit like starting again anyway. And we are becoming a bit more flexible with the idea of 'careers' these days- ie. there aren't as many people staying in the same industry all of their lives now. The career ladder is abit more about moving sideways as opposed to the traditional 'up'.