Amending working hours to accommodate childcare - why is it almost always the women running around?

[littleEDfamily]

Starting new thread to (hopefully) carry on the discussions here:

I agree with those who have said it needs to become more acceptable for men to adjust working hours, take care of kids when sick etc.

But I do think we can't have our cake and eat it. Professionally and personally I have met so many women, who upon having children, undergo, at least temporarily, a huge and fundamental change in their attitude to work, going from being focussed on a career, to just wanting a 'job' that gets a little bit of money through the door. If that is the deal you cut with your partner (and your employer) you're always going to be the one running about while your partner's career carries on unchanged. Even where both parents work fulltime, it seems quite common for the couple themselves to place more value on the husband's career. By the way, I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with the set up I've just described, but when it is the default position for so many couples, it's unlikely much is going to change. I work in HR and can honestly say that in most of the environments I've worked in, men's applications to work part-time would have been approved just as readily as women in similar roles, and more managers would have been just as accommodating for childcare, but .....for whatever reason, the couple had decided that it was the wife to be the one 'putting family first'. The cold reality is that when you do overtly put yourself in the position where it is clear family is the priority (or that within your family, the lionshare of the responsbility falls to you), it DOES have an impact on career success. And I get the feeling that in some cases it's the women not prepared to let their men paint themselves in that light.

So I don't think it is as simple as blaming men. And, although I am not for a minute suggesting that it is ok for women to kill themselves doing everything, I do think the primary reason the responsibilities are divided as they are is that most women after having children identify most strongly with their mother/ homemaker role, whereas most men's sense of self worth is most strongly tied up in their 'money-maker' role.

PS Trying not to make this ia personal discussion or one about the many exceptions to my 'rule', but rather a discussion about why the norms seem to continue as they are.

[Saila]

I think you're right

I also think many woman *want* to take a step back - but how much of that is giving up knowing they've got a fight ahead in terms

Of 'doing it all'

Has it something to do with being on maternity leave for so long, it gets entrenched. In that the woman does *everything* in terms of organising the house

Cos she's 'off' and to break out of this is that much harder so they sort of give up

This wasn't the case for us, but I hear you with 'exceptions to the rule'

I thinnk the above is the more common situatiopn

Plus... How much money earmed doesn't really impact things. The male just gets prorirty it seems. I earm nearly 3x my partner, makes no difference

[Beagle]

I do think that historically or biologically (not sure if it is a biological imperative) when a baby comes along women nurture and men become hunter-gatherers. Through design naturally the woman is the primary care giver of a newborn and these are the roles we fall into temporarily and then it becomes more fixed.

I gave up thinking you could have it all years ago and don't feel any less of a strong woman for this. What feminism gave us was the right to have choices, to choose to work, to stay at home, to have children or not to, choices denied to many of our forebears. All choices in the spectrum are valid to my mind even if they are not always exactly what we hoped for. That there is a disparity in the division of the childcare/home labour does get to me somedays and I think from speaking to friends that the division of this labour, and the lingering resentment, is the root of so many domestic rows. What I tell myself is that it is not forever. Of course we'll see!

Anyway I made a rod for my own back by believing my cleaning skills were superior and criticising his, so he stopped doing what he did do . . .

[Keef]

My work are cool with the fact I start later on Mondays, to take daughter to childcare, and have been fine with me calling in when she's poorly. I work in public sector though, so perhaps that's why.

I do have to say though, that a large part of the reason for women doin most of the running round, in my experience, is that they won't have it an other way... Then they moan about it!

*takes cover*

[Smiler]

It is usually the person who is not the main breadwinner before kids who does more of -or all- the childcare, and since more men earn more than their partners it's women who lose out in terms of work/earnings.

Would be interested to know what happens when the woman earns more, and (cynically) suspect that the men in those cases will be much more likely than women in a similar situation to continue to work full-time.

Have recently realised that everything re childcare gets much, much more difficult with two children, and that preschools/schools are not geared up to support two working parents at all!

I also think that some men who say they can't request flexible working 'cos this could damage their career need to remember that women face this issue too. If men don't even ask, how will anything change?

[Smiler]

Keef, i'll take the bait, that is utter bollocks!

[Smiler]

Though i do agree that public sector is often more reasonable about flexible working in general.

[littleEDfamily]

Smiler Wrote:

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> I also think that some men who say they can't

> request flexible working 'cos this could damage

> their career need to remember that women face this

> issue too. If men don't even ask, how will

> anything change?

Agree, but I think the problem is that a significant number of women seem more prepared for their career to plateau or go backwards post-kids - I've heard once ambitious women state they have 'lost interest'. Conversely, I know quite a few men, who, once they have kids find they get even more motivated in their careers - partly because they have to be (as their partner's earnings have taken a hit, but also, I think the 'provider' mentality kicks in.

[Keef]

Smiler Wrote:

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> Keef, i'll take the bait, that is utter bollocks!

It wasn't meant as bait. And i'm amazed you can by it's utter bollocks, just because it's not something that perhaps you recognise. Mrs Keef despises the 3 days she, away from our little one, so when she's with her, she just wants to be with her, and often, when I suggest, for example, that I take daughter out, because Mrs Keef is tired, she won't let me because she wants to be with her. I completely understand that, but equally, don't go moaning that you never get a break.

[zeban]

Beagle, I agree with every single word of your post.

And Keef, I although I would say it propbably depends on the woman, I do really agree with you.

[Keef]

Typing on phone, hence typos.

[Lochie]

[pre]

[/pre]

I do agree with you Keef. I think some women feel so tied to the child (having carried and nursed it) that they just cannot let go and let the man do some of the practical stuff related to the child. I have an amazing husband who helps with all the chores but I still think I can do them better than him. I hen peck him alot for his version of cleaning (he thinks tidying, but not hoovering and dusting, IS cleaning) and he is incredulous that I unload the dishwasher at the same time as feeding our son in his high chair, as he just does not 'get' multi tasking in some respects. When I think about how I peck away at him I think how crap that that is. But its only because I still, 17 months on, cannot believe how hard the pregnancy/labour/new baby is physically on women, and men do escape that physical hardship (apart from the sleepless nights of course!).

I will be very interested to see how Clegg's paternity leave proposals shape up and the uptake rate of the 10 month paternity leave option for men, if it comes to fruition: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12204079

I work in HR, and I know that things are changing, but it is not so long ago that men in the City were frowned upon for taking paternity leave at all. My husband's ex-firm (financial sector) do not even pay more that statutory paternity, and eyebrows were raised by one of his bosses when he extended his paternity leave to 4 weeks when our son was born. Laws may change but I think it'll take a long time for attitudes to change....

[reneet]

I surprisingly agree with Keef just a little bit. I hate not being there when my daughter is ill. I had to share chidcare with Mr. Reneet when she was recently ill as i had a deadline that i could not miss. We did alternate days and I absolutely hated it. I felt that she needed me not him when she was ill, he is the fun one. I am the carer.

I guess i feel confused, on the one hand I want to be there for my children and on the other hand I love what i do professionally. Unfortunately for me, my profession is not a half house, i cannot just drop everything.

Mr. Reneet has offered several times to share the pick ups and drop off but I will not let him. In my opinion its ridiculous for him to do it as its opposite direction from where he needs to go while its next door to my work.

I agree with Beagle, when Mr. Reneet, cleans I criticise his efforts and sometimes redo his work, which must be frustrating for him.

So when I am run down and completely frustrated i have no one to blame my myself or probably my mother as well. I was raised by a nanny and because of that my children will never be closer to another person than they are to me (in short I am never (never say never) getting a nanny). Not that her spending an average of 10hours a day in nursery is any better.

[WorkingMummy]

I agree with those who have said that it needs to become more acceptable for guys to take career breaks, go part time, leave work early for kids' stuff. And I agree with Saila that money doesn't come into it. I earn many times what my husband earns in his employment. And he earns less than what we pay in child care. But there is absolutely no way he would quit his job. That's fine. He helps loads around the house, no complaints there. But what bugs me is that whenever something comes up at home or with the kids that needs one of us to be on site, the assumption is that I'll be the one who'll do it. I can usually get him to do it when I absolutely need him to, but it always takes a lot of nagging and sometimes outright threats. The default position is me. My husband always says that in his industry he would get zero support and understanding about child-related absences. I think it affects my job just as much as it would his, and my job is frankly more valuable to our family than his is.

Sorry to be completely hard-line feminist about this, but in my view, the flak/bullying/hard time men get if they take on a bigger share of the burden may seem like a problem directed at them, but in reality it is just another way of our society keeping women in their traditional place and protecting the historic, patriarchal norm. Women in the family can have a career too, just as long as they do it on top of everything else.

WMxx

PS I get a lot of joy from caring for my family. Cooking for my kids, breast feeding my babies, the best bits of life.

[charlottep]

Saila Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Plus... How much money earmed doesn't really

> impact things. The male just gets prorirty it

> seems. I earm nearly 3x my partner, makes no

> difference

Saila, that's up to each couple to decide surely, rather than a broader social pressure? I am the main earner, my husband and I decided together that I should continue to work and that he would try being a SAHD to our toddler and baby. I know we are unusual and I do find that very odd, as I don't think that as individuals we are particularly enlightened or "right-on"! It was just the most practical solution for our family. Unfortunately, we do encounter stigma though - when I returned to full time work after number 2, LOTS of people (particularly family) were concerned about how my husband would feel - would it be too insular for him, etc. No one seemed particularly bothered about how it felt for me to return back to work and leave my babies for 50 hours a week! I must admit, it's not a great feeling being away so much (particularly when one of them is unwell), but I console myself by thinking about the very positive example we are setting both our son and daughter.

[Saila]

"Saila, that's up to each couple to decide surely, rather than a broader social pressure?"

absolutely - didn't mean to make a sweeping statement - it's fair to say, i had to negotiate my way out of the classic assumption that i do all the household stuff... MOH is great but let's just say that it didn't come from him... i had to instigate job sharing / childcare when sick etc i organise everything - my secretary has my nanny's phone number, i'm not sure his secretary knows he has a baby....

and i can see it elsewhere but obviously there are exceptions, like yourself and us now that we've worked things out

[littleEDfamily]

Just another observation... I have noticed that when the woman is a the higher earner and therefore works full time, it's a third party such as a nanny that picks up the slack, as opposed to the lower earning man sorting out flexible working.

charlottep - your comment really resonated with me. When we moved house, I was struggling with a newborn baby, a challenging pre-schooler while trying to run two businesses, everyone seemed more concerned about my husband's commute and long hours and commenting on how AMAZING he was for still helping out around the house. People don't seem as comfortable seeing men struggling to do it all (so much for me not making this discussion personal!)

Sometimes, I think the 'top job' in terms of managing the domestic setting does need to reside with one person. As much as my husband's uselessness at home frustrates me (he's not actually that useless, relatively speaking), and as difficult I find it to work and fit in all the kid and house stuff, I don't think I would relinquish control of the house to my hubby permanently, although he copes pretty well when left to his own devices. In a lot of ways, it works for him to defer to me on house/ kids stuff as there is no conflict. And actually, I don't think he's up to it. But of course, he could learn...

[Smiler]

Keef wrote:

> I do have to say though, that a large part of the

> reason for women doin most of the running round,

> in my experience, is that they won't have it an

> other way... Then they moan about it!

>

> *takes cover*

it's the generalisation that annoys me keef.

[Keef]

I did say "in my experience". Which to be fair, is limited. I then went on to explain what I meant.

[new mother]

With us, I have been very surprised - you just can't buck biology. That's what it amounts to. It amazes me how strong my maternal instincts are, in comparison to what I thought was a strong ambition to work and do well. It amazes me how confident I am in my (untaught an inexperienced) parenting. It amazes me how I feel finally like a round peg in a round hole. THis is what I am programmed for.

BUT

My brain says - when the ch are both at school/univeristy. which happens faster than you think, what are you going to do. I must work now to stay in the labour market and to have something to do when they no longer need me - in London, this process starts at about age 7(!). So, I will do an external job to earn money to pay someone to enjoy the best years of my children's lives.

Interesting thread, thanks for raising the issue.

[Saila]

>"So, I will do an external job to earn money to pay someone to enjoy the best years of my children's lives. "

that's a bit gloomy no?

my mum would say it just gets better and better?

i still see my M&D 2-3x a week

i'm not even sure my mother was that happy when we were all toddlers. She found it a struggle (my father didn't help out) and she missed her job.

anyway - just to say that these years aren't necessarily a ring fenced part of ones life that you have to grab on to before you lose everything? family life can live on past 7yrs, or even 18yrs for that matter and be as rewarding, if not more so :)

[KatsuQueen]

Great thread, really interesting. I work full time and find it really tiring, but happy with my decision overall. Although we do need the money*, it's not ALL about money. When Minikatsu was born, I thought - what would I do if money was no object? How would I live my life? Would I like to stay home and concentrate on raising children? Or would I want to do more? and the answer was, staying at home all the time to look after children would not be my choice. Money, or lack of money, is only one factor.

That is what I have to be grateful for feminists for; that choice.

So now that I know what I want, it's just a case of getting on with it!

I work with lots of men, and I can understand Keef's point earlier. A few years ago, one of my colleagues said to me when his son was only a few months old, "when I get home I just want to cuddle my son, but my wife because she's been with him all day - it's like I can't do anything right when it comes to him. Even the way I hold him is wrong."

On the other hand, one of my other colleagues used to regularly go to the pub after work, go back to the office at 8pm and call his wife and tell her how he had to work late, etc and he has just finished and was heading home now. (This was a few times a week!!)

And one night as we were working late, another male colleague looked at his watch at 6:30 and said, well I'll stay till 7, then the bedtime thing will be all over by the time I get home.

Just two examples but this sort of thing happened regularly. Makes me realise how lucky I am with MrKatsu and how we share responsibility. It;s nice to think that all men would always choose family over work, but after working with lots of men (in engineering) I know that they would prefer the easier option (i.e. work...)

[Keef]

I just can't believe blokes do that sort of thing. Well, I can believe it, but I'm shocked, and saddened by it.

Yes there are times I wish I could be childess, and sometimes even wifeless again, and get home at whatever time of the morning I want, in what ever state I want, but they are only fleating moments. Why get married and have kids if you don't want to enjoy them, and be around!?!

[new mother]

Exactly Keef!

Saila, yes good point. :-) I supppose what I meant but didn't articulate properly was that the baby years are unique whereas as adults, hopefulyl we all have a good 60 of those to enjoy. THe rarity of the early developmental years makes them extremely valuable? or maybe aagin it's a programming thing and jsut my instinct to be with these children, like a mother hen.

Does anyone think there are degrees of maternal instinct or it is a binary thing you just have or don't have?

[Saila]

>Does anyone think there are degrees of maternal instinct or it is a binary thing you just have or don't have?

could a major influence be the way our mums brought us up?

i've found one common theme is poss that mums feel "pulled" to be SAHMs IF they had SAHMs themselves?

it's pretty normal 'instinct' to do what we had as children.

I have that feeling.

My mum went back to work as soon as she coould and i kinda feel that's normal and that's what i did. That's probably why i dont get the guilt that some mums get? It's just normal to me. Plus my mother didn't go back for financial reasons. She just loved her job. So she was a strong influence on me and a big role model for me and i like that. If i have a girl, I want her to see that i'm happy working and be a role model for her too. When i leave her with the nanny or at school, i'm not going to say 'mum needs to earn money so you can eat/go to a good school etc'. I want to say 'I'm going to work cos i love what my job'

just a thought