Red Arrows

[Jah Lush]

The smoke's the best bit.

[Annasfield]

Can you delete posts?

[Brendan]

I think that's Swazi Red you're talking about there jah. It's kind of arrow shaped when fresh I suppose.

[Brendan]

Nope. You can edit them though.

[Marmora Man]

Just some thoughts on the Red Arrows.

They are a team of highly trained fast jet pilots flying what are essentially display rather than military aircraft.

The displays and extreme flying skills have little military implication and could be likened to the old Field Gun competition of the Royal Tournament days (sadly no more). They can be admired on the basis of skill, daring and sheer exuberance bringing joy to those watching - and not taken as an arrogant display of military might / reflection of an oppressive imperial history. There are very few countries in the world that can claim to have always been the "good guys" - so if the Red Arrows display team flies across your horizon - why not chill and enjoy the show, not seek some post modernist meaning in it.

[lozzyloz]

Perhaps they should be rebranded the Pink Arrows and have fluffy smoke trails . . .

[SeanMacGabhann]

Marmora Man

Your post is spot on - as far as it goes. I certainly wouldn't get that bothered if it happened tonight. Even if I had managed to get to sleep and they woke me up!

The bigger question is (as an intelligent person like you well knows), given their role in raising funds for British defence/invasion, would the wider world (which is the audience for the Olympics) share such a benign view, given current world events?

It's entirely possible to hold a position which cares not a jot for the rest of the world, but I would suggest that would make the holder of such a view less than ideal Olympic-decision-Making material

[Mark]

hang on, if it's because they're military aren't javelins based on er, javelins, weapons of war used by the Romans? I say let's not be reminded of the barbaric and imperialist days of the Roman Empire either, I mean, what did they ever do for us?

Other war related events include, the Marathon, rifle shooting, wrestling, fencing and maybe beach volleyball.

Personally I like the Red Arrows but otherwise get the Red Bull aerobatic team to do it, they wouldn't make people think of war and destruction as they do loops the loops and make the Olympic rings in the sky. But then again the Red Arra's have never made me think of that. Until now.

[SeanMacGabhann]

True Mark, true, but I don't think that many people in Iraq (on any side) have died in the last 5 years as a result of javelin hurling

[Mark]

OK, but how many people in Iraq have died from a Red Arrows fly past?

[Michael Palaeologus]

Red Arrows fly umarmed training aircraft. OK - ignore that one it is very weak I admit.

In the world at large there is a somewhat trying tendency toward historical revisionism that would have us be ashamed of Britains past.

We have a various times done beastly things to most of the people's of the world. WE have either enslaved them, killed them and nicked their lands, wealth and bits of interesting architecture - much of which is in the British Museum.

Guilty as charged, or at least my Great Grandparents were, but actually, not me.

I happen to be quite proud of the British Military, they get given shitty jobs to do by deeply cynical politicians who do not give them the resources that they need to do the job properly.

The Olympics is an international event - with a British flavour in 2012, no doubt 2008 will have a Chinese flavour. The Red Arrows do represent the British military tradition and so the should perform.

A bunch of small red planes trailing red, white and blue smoke is hardly a cassus bellae.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Much of this is wise and true. . But its not britain s past that is represented by the red arrows at the olympics... Its its present as viewed by the world

[Michael Palaeologus]

Maybe so, but its not like Tony Blair and George W are going to open the Olymics by driving a tank around the running track!

Its a bunch of little red planes trailing coloured smoke.

[mockney piers]

I have to say I'm with in the MP gang on this one.

Everybody likes aeroplanes with brightly coloured trails.

There is such a thing as too much sensitivity sometimes, especially if noone has actually complained.

Of course anyone in Indonesia with first hand experience of those 'trainer' hawks we sold them is probably dead, so no worries there ;)

[spadetownboy]

Mark Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> OK, but how many people in Iraq have died from a

> Red Arrows fly past?

none i presume, but if there was a u.s. version of the re arrows i,d hate to think of the consequences of a fly past.collateral damage,friendly fire!!!!!

[Brendan]

All your arguments are valid Michael but not for this argument. This is not about what this nation thinks of itself and the atrocities that have been committed in its name (some of which aren?t all that long ago I might add) but about being polite to the guests you are playing host to for these games.

All those things that the native Britons have so magnanimously come to terms with still run very close to the bone in some parts of the world. (I might just add I?m not trying to have a go at the British with this statement. I?m a white South African so christ knows I know what it is like to be guilty by association)

Personally I like military displays of all sorts and religiously watch the Edinburgh Tattoo. I just don?t think that the military should have anything to do with the Olympics.

The military is a machine to propagate war and therefore everything associated with it is no matter how you dress it up. The Olympics is a competition held in the spirit of peace.

[Michael Palaeologus]

The British military are as much a part of Britain as cricket and warm beer. I think part of a wider problem is that most people in the UK have no contact with the military and so perceive it as an "alien" entity that does bad things.

The core role of the military now is to keep the peace, either through deterent or intervention. Its the politicians that put them in unpleasent and unpopular situations.

So, if the Red Arrows shouldnt be at the Olympcis because they represent war, then neither should the people who send them to war - the Politcians. Who, no doubt, will be there is spades.

[mockney piers]

I know the Red Arrows are part of the RAF, but I'm sure that's because they're the best around.

I never thought of the displays as overtly military, they just happen to use the military designed equipment to hand.

It's not really in the same spirit as the Soviet may day parades is it.

If it was was a drive past of tanks then fair enough, but I'm sure it's more to do with pretty smoke trails and impressive aerobatics.

Maybe, as someone suggested, we get the Red Bull people instead, it's just they're not as good.

But if it's reallllly so bad I can do without, in fact I don't think I'll be watching it anyway, the only enjoyable opening ceremony moment was Diana Ross' kick in the World Cup (which I think SMG mentioned. Ooh, do his initials make him overtly military? ;-))

[SeanMacGabhann]

cover blown!

I'm really not that bothered myself - although I could see how some other countries might be.

It was the tone of the original petition/email and it's motivations (NOT Anna's post) which really got my goat (see also that petrol prices one some months back)

Even if other countries are pressurising Britain into what can and can't be done, before we start to give out about it, keep in mind the pressure many countries (UK included) put on Korea re: dogs on menus when they were hosting the 88 Olympics and 2002 World Cup

[Jah Lush]

Bollocks, utter utter bollocks. These Olympics don't take place for another five years. A few planes that never take part in battle showing off their skills and letting off a few plumes of smoke. How f**king sensitive to you have to be. "Oh crikey this is going upset a few people isn't it dear. It just might remind everyone of how beastly we were in the war." Like f**k it will. Bunch of namby pambys the lot of you.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Jah - heartfelt - just a shame that is word for WORD how Tony Blair phrased it to the cabinet before going in to Iraq

(joke!)

[Brendan]

I get your point completely but it is not about what people from this country think of the military. It is about what the guests that are being invited here think about it. It wouldn?t be very good form to invite them here with a ?this is our country and if you don?t like it you can fuckoff? attitude.

It just has to do with tact. You don?t go waving your willy in other people?s faces even if the fact that they are offended by it is just like sooo completely unreasonable.

[*Bob*]

The 'Arrows' need only be the cherry on the cake..

I suggest: an elderly motorcycle display team - doing that pyramid formation thing; a thousand Morris dancers; Beefeaters doing the Lambeth Walk and donkey rides near the long jump pit.

[lozzyloz]

The Red Arrows are an amazing aerial display team though I'm not sure how effective they'll be if your sitting in a sports stadium. There are also safety issues to consider as you can't do stunts over spectators. When you watch them at an airshow they normally cross over etc above the runway and well away from the crowd. When they do flypasts over London there is a minimum height they can fly at and if cloud cover is low then the flight is canceled.

You can't ignore the fact that they are in someway symbolic of the military even though they are one of the things that puts the G8 in GB. Perhaps we can have a Fish Battering and Chip frying display instead.

[Brendan]

They are awesome to watch. I?ve seen them twice and would jump at the chance to see them again.