Brexit View

[Alan Medic]

citylover Wrote:

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> I cannot wait for Brexit and if it isn't delivered

> as it was meant to be, end of free movement,

> reinstating British Law as the highest law in the

> land etc us Leavers will fight on because it's

> worth it for our democracy. MP's are not there to

> decide what's good for us, as some Remainers like

> to argue,they are there to represent us and the

> sooner they do the better.All these arguments

> about job losses etc were fully played out during

> the referendum and Leavers considered, with all

> things considered, Brexit is the only acceptable

> way forward. There will be positives and negatives

> as with everything in life, Remainers prefer to

> play up the bad, which you can do, but all it does

> is harm the national interest, it does not get you

> a second vote. Why? Because then there will have

> to be a third, a fourth, a fifth ad infinitum and

> we are not Ireland, we do not vote until the

> little people finally give the 'right' answer.

Kindly f off with your patronising little people remark. You are not Ireland, but half the problem is you don't know who you are. The Empire has gone. You don't rule the world and fairly soon there won't be a United Kingdom.

[civilservant]

teddyboy23 Wrote:

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> Denny dyer real name Malcolm dyer fcuking knob

so is Jeremy Paxman a 'fcuking knob' too? he does seem to be on exactly the same page as Danny Dyer

[diable rouge]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Stop branding Brexiteers as Racists.

[JoeLeg]

DulwichFox.

>

>

> Stop branding Brexiteers as Racists.

>

> DulwichFox

Foxy mate, firstly who branded all Brexiters as racists? Kindly quote the post please.

Secondly, you need to understand something very clearly. Not all Leave voters are racists by any stretch, but the Brexit vote HAS given succour to the racist section of society. Whether you like that fact or not, as Leave voters it?s something you have to own up to.

Just as Remainers should not have been so dismissive on immigration, you shouldn?t be so dismissive of the reasons behind some of the people who voted Leave. Stop trying to pretend all of you think the same.

Plus everything else Flockerspotter said, emphatically.

[JoeLeg]

citylover Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I cannot wait for Brexit and if it isn't delivered

> as it was meant to be, end of free movement,

> reinstating British Law as the highest law in the

> land etc us Leavers will fight on because it's

> worth it for our democracy. MP's are not there to

> decide what's good for us, as some Remainers like

> to argue,they are there to represent us and the

> sooner they do the better.All these arguments

> about job losses etc were fully played out during

> the r eferendum and Leavers considered, with all

> things considered, Brexit is the only acceptable

> way forward. There will be positives and negatives

> as with everything in life, Remainers prefer to

> play up the bad, which you can do, but all it does

> is harm the national interest, it does not get you

> a second vote. Why? Because then there will have

> to be a third, a fourth, a fifth ad infinitum and

> we are not Ireland, we do not vote until the

> little people finally give the 'right' answer.

You do understand that the same democracy which gave you victory in the referendum allows other people to continue arguing their case, don?t you?

Yes, A50 has been invoked and we will be leaving the EU. End of. But do you seriously think you live in a world where other people aren?t allowed to disagree with you? You seem to genuinely think that the 48% who votes the other way should no lonnger be allowed an opinion, and I suspect that isn?t what you really think.

No one with half a brain really thinks there will be a second vote, so that?s a bit of a straw man on your part. But if you think the general debate is over then you?re mistaken. Surely you see that?

There have been savage divisions pushed into our society in the last two years and it?s high time we started dealing with it. Telling people that their opinions aren?t welcome isn?t going to do that.

[JoeLeg]

flocker spotter Wrote:

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Brexit is a symption of the infection. When we focus on process and minutae, we can miss the big picture, even it it staring us in the face.There is something deepy wrong in UK society- as much as i detest the bull headed gammon ramblings, I dont think that many of them are able to view the big picture- and i hate to say it, i can kinda understand their tubthumping to a degree- brexit isnt going to make any of these ills go away

> brexiteers have a tenous and ill founded grasp on

> the real world sometimes, as do EU flag waving

> remainers. this isn't about racism. Brexit will

> never bring about this poorly defined ideal of

> freedom any more than remaining in the EU will.

> The sooner everyone realises that they have been

> sold a mangy pup over the past century and have

> been taken the piss out of , the sooner we can

> move on and actually distill something good out of

> this.

>

> big pictures are better than thunbnails, arguemnts

> about racism on either side are a diversion and a

> convenient sideshow that takes the focus away from

> the inherent bstructural failings of the distorted

> mirage of democracy we have been spoon fed since

> birth.

I?d just like to repeat that I fervently agree with all of this.

[DulwichFox]

So we have a second vote.. and it goes the other way.. ?

so we have a third vote.. Best out of Three.. and two more..Best out of Five.

We have all played that game in the Playground when were 8 Years Old.

[Alan Medic]

It's a different game when you know what you are playing for Fox. People didn't and many still don't.

[JoeLeg]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> So we have a second vote.. and it goes the other

> way.. ?

>

> so we have a third vote.. Best out of Three.. and

> two more..Best out of Five.

>

> We have all played that game in the Playground

> when were 8 Years Old.

Hi Foxy, have you found that post where someone said all Leavers are racist yet?

I?m keen to see it.

[Alan Medic]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> flocker spotter Wrote:

> >

> > big pictures are better than thunbnails,

> arguemnts

> > about racism on either side are a diversion and

> a

> > convenient sideshow that takes the focus away

> from

> > the inherent bstructural failings of the

> distorted

> > mirage of democracy we have been spoon fed

> since

> > birth.

>

>

> I?d just like to repeat that I fervently agree

> with all of this.

Genuine question. If this country has experienced a mirage of democracy for so long, what replaces it? And how?

[teddyboy23]

Civil servant I did not mean dd is a fcuking knob because of what he said about cameron . I'm saying dd is just a fcuking knob

[flocker spotter]

Alan Medic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JoeLeg Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > flocker spotter Wrote:

>

> > >

> > > big pictures are better than thunbnails,

> > arguemnts

> > > about racism on either side are a diversion

> and

> > a

> > > convenient sideshow that takes the focus away

> > from

> > > the inherent bstructural failings of the

> > distorted

> > > mirage of democracy we have been spoon fed

> > since

> > > birth.

> >

> >

> > I?d just like to repeat that I fervently agree

> > with all of this.

>

> Genuine question. If this country has experienced

> a mirage of democracy for so long, what replaces

> it? And how?

option 1 would ensure the SB would be kicking in my door before midnight and me being led out of the house in an orange jumpsuit,so lets not go down that route

Option 2 would be anything that breaks the strongold of the current party system that is still effectively based on the feudal squire layout of yore - so a more pr based structure, possibly using the party list model as a driver- but a turbocharded version with greater accountability.

option 3 is me in charge

basically a break from tradition is needed,any break would be a start-it is unfit for purpose and as we can observe, is clearly destined to prioritise self preservation of its own political class at any cost. i dont want to go on about shitting brexit, but this is a perfect example of a manufactured crisis that keeps eveyone occupied on events and out of the change arena.bit of a weasly answer but i am open to anything at the minute

[StraferJack]

Joeleg said:

?No one with half a brain really thinks there will be a second vote?

This will not age well. It?s possible there will not be a second vote. But it?s more likely there will

And if there is not a second vote, the outcome will make people ?with half a brain? wish there was. Why anyone with ?half a brain?, with knowledge of other countries, of history, would so easily dismiss a second vote is curious

[JoeLeg]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> Joeleg said:

> ?No one with half a brain really thinks there will

> be a second vote?

>

> This will not age well. It?s possible there will

> not be a second vote. But it?s more likely there

> will

>

> And if there is not a second vote, the outcome

> will make people ?with half a brain? wish there

> was. Why anyone with ?half a brain?, with

> knowledge of other countries, of history, would so

> easily dismiss a second vote is curious

Ok, let me clarify then.

There is, I believe, zero chance of a ?second referendum? as currently proposed by many Remain supporters. Zero. None. Nada. It?s not going to happen. They are also not going to give us a vote on the final deal.

Can you imagine the public outcry from Leave voters if a second one returned a Remain result? They would demand a third ?run-off?, because all we have then is a tie. It would also be a short trip to a UKIP presence in government and that?s a horrifying thought.

Look, I voted Remain. I still believe leaving the EU is a mistake, but I?m also a pragmatist. We?ve triggered A50 and so the wheels are set in motion. The time to prevent it was before that.

Will there be another vote 40 years down the line? Quite possibly. But right now we?re stuck on this path. The Leave contingent gets to drag all of us along for the ride with promises and demands for our faith in them, placating is with emotional appeals that have no solid basis in demonstrable fact; they have nothing more. Maybe they?ll be right? Maybe this will turn out to be a grand new dawn? I doubt it personally.

The referendum result shocked those in power into remembering why they don?t let the public make these choices. They aren?t going to be holding any more anytime soon. We?re all being shoehorned into a ride into the total dark.

[Sephiroth]

. Wrong browser innit

[StraferJack]

2 edits and that?s it?

I?ll ask again. Why do other countries have a second referendum? Why is there no civil outcry there?

So tell me. What is different about this country?? What???

[malumbu]

Driving down from the Chilterns North West on the M40 I see two signs. UKIP supports Tommy Robinson. A second, "pray for Tommy Robinson, he exposed the rapist gangs".

Flip we are a polarised/divided nation. OK going off on a tangent.

[diable rouge]

I would hold fire on making any bold predictions about whether or not there will be a 2nd ref, or indeed anything to do with Brexit right now. ''A week is a long time in politics'', and next week there's this big Chequers pow-wow. If May is unable to continue kicking the can down the road, then she somehow has to reach a consensus with her Cabinet, who have already started tearing strips of each other ahead of the meeting, so that's not looking good.

The problem May has had since the election is that there isn't a majority in the HoC for the two likely outcomes, either a very soft, very long, Andrex Brexit in order to deal with the Irish border, or a very Hard Brexit/No Deal. I can't see either getting through Parliament without mass resignations, some kind of leadership challenge and/or a general election, and/or a 2nd ref.

Joe, UKIP are currently a very different beast, even Farage thinks they have veered off to an extreme. They will attract the loony FreeTommy brigade, but that's about it...

[JoeLeg]

Jesus wept Strafer...

I can?t say anything that I haven?t already. But I?ll try.

I do not believe the political will exists in the UK for any further public consultation. Theresa May is hemmed in by hard Brexiters who are pushing their agenda. To their mind they got the result they wanted and they aren?t about to bother asking again - they don?t see why they should.

Why are we different from other countries? Well, I suppose we?re not, but I believe that there are enough extreme Brexiters in the UK that would scream and yell if another vote was held, and they frequentlyvreference the second referendum in Ireland as what they perceive as an example of it being repeated just to get the ?right? result - Dulwich Fox is a perfect example as he demonstrated - and as such politicians are terrified of them.

Finally, why would they? What does the ruling political elite gain from asking us what we think again? Cameron went for it because his hubris and arrogance convinced him it was on the bag; both May and Osbourne warned against it. Why would they risk it now? I simply can think of no benefit to Cons or Lab in holding another referendum.

So ultimately I guess I reckon the main reason they won?t do it is because there?s nothing in it for them. Cameron only did it because he was crapping himself over UKIP.

Diable - UKIP existed when people reckoned they could ride it to Article 50. It then collapsed when they didn?t call it on the morning. I believe that if there was a genuine feeling that we weren?t going to leave that you?d see them grow again.

I have no idea where this is going to end up. I can?t fathom how the govt is going to figure it all out but Leave voters keep telling me it?s all go to be ok so surely their blind faith will be enough to see us through?

No, I don?t really believe it will either...

[StraferJack]

What does the ?ruling elite? gain from giving birth to something they know will destroy the country?

British precedent alone says the ?elite? caved in/persuaded/misrepresented on Iraq (yep, the people wanted that. They won?t admit it now tho)

What will the people say when it turns to shit? Unlike Iraq, this country doesn?t get to walk away

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/06/03/remembering-iraq/

I simply state: the country needs to ratify/reject a decision this big. Anything else is blind, arrogant folly

[JoeLeg]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> What does the ?ruling elite? gain from giving

> birth to something they know will destroy the

> country?

>

Well, they?re divided into two - the Jacob and Boris crowd genuinely believe this is the way forward. They think this is a good idea. As for the rest of them? I think they?re scared, bluntly. They didn?t think they?d lose the referendum. They didn?t think Trump would get elected. They didn?t think the Tories would get such a beating at the GE. They don?t have any idea which way the electorate will jump on any given issue and they aren?t about to let them have a say if they can avoid it.

And I personally think those who believe Brexit to be a bad idea have no idea what to do. I think they?re running scared and hoping some kind of Deus Ex Machina will emerge and somehow solve it all.

> British precedent alone says the ?elite? caved

> in/persuaded/misrepresented on Iraq (yep, the

> people wanted that. They won?t admit it now tho)

>

> What will the people say when it turns to shit?

> Unlike Iraq, this country doesn?t get to walk away

>

I agree. I?ve long said that most of the things Leave voters blame the EU for have been wholly of our own making. I?m concerned about that. Leave voters will say that it means we can hold our MP?s to account at the ballot box, which just makes me laugh.

>

>

> https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/06/03/remembering-i

> raq/

>

> I simply state: the country needs to

> ratify/reject a decision this big. Anything else

> is blind, arrogant folly

Strafer mate, I never said we shouldn?t have such a vote (or if I did then I mis-spoke/typed); I believe rathercthay they will never give it to us. They don?t have to, so they?re not going to.

(Ok, caveat - I can envisage it happening if everything goes so totally to ratshit that we start to resemble Italian politics, but if things get that bad we?ll be in real trouble).

[Alan Medic]

http://uk.businessinsider.com/morgan-stanley-election-2018-may-government-collapse-2017-11

This article is from last November. Nothing much has changed since then. From what has been leaked regarding next week's white paper,even the people who wrote it think it's a work of fiction.It appears this government will never be able to agree on a deal with the EU.

Andrew Adonis

‏

Brexit White Paper has been described to me by Whitehall insider as ?the most ludicrous government publication since the Green Paper proposing the poll tax in 1987. No one who has written it believes it?

There may well have to be another GE. Who would win? Labour could well shift their goalposts and support another vote on the EU and that would probably be enough to see them gain power. Even if they didn't shift their position but won an election simply based on how bad the Tories have been, they would want to negotiate with the EU on their terms, as pie in the sky as they might be. With little time available for this until March 2019, they may request and be granted an extension to A50.

If that happens then anything can happen afterwards including another vote on leaving. Corbyn in my view just wants to be PM. His socialist views are attractive to many. However, he may not be able to afford to implement them if we leave the EU given the likely poor/dire economic consequences. So I wouldn't give up yet on hoping Brexit will not happen.

[citylover]

A 'whitehall insider' describes the Brexit White paper as ludicrous? Well that's hardly surprising as they've all die-hard Remainers. While the likes of France just ignnore rules they don't like, such as on competition (re-naionalising one of their industries when an Italian company tried to buy it- the company complained vociferously, citing the rules, France ignored them) our delightful civil servants have made it their task to dot very I and cross every T on every single edict that emanates from the EU. The point being, Whitehall insiders being upset about Brexit is no cause to worry, it's just an expression of their bias. The only real worry of Remainers is that it'll all work out fine in the end and their superstate dream will slip from their grasp forever.

[JoeLeg]

So you criticise the French for ignoring things they don?t like, but on the same breath declare that you ignore anything said by the civil service because you have incontrovertible proof that every last one of them is a Remainer.

Do you see the cognitive dissonance in your statement?

Do you not see the hypocrisy with you just ignoring things that say stuff you don?t want to hear?

[Alan Medic]

You mean this?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-stx-m-a-fincantieri/italys-fincantieri-to-take-control-of-frances-stx-ending-shipyard-row-idUSKCN1C22NZ

Which rule did France ignore? You didn't give any source, which is always a good thing to ask of a leaver.

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