Brexit View

[Blah Blah]

Some won't be happy of course, until we see the return of Wessex, Mercia and Middle Anglia ;)

[Seabag]

And Mordor

Let's not forget Mordor

[Multifish]

I'd quite like the UK to have more open spaces, more wildlife, less pollution and more vegetation as it did in the times of Wessex and Mercia. It would be good for our health, what's wrong with that?

[malumbu]

We just need a plague as we did in the old days to reduce our population, or a good war (which feels more likely)

[Multifish]

Instead of human extermination we could remove all the roads, plant vegetation along the sides and grass in the middle, build bicycles and rickshaws with materials from crushing all the cars, put dirt tyres on emergency vehicles and articulated lorries and remove garden fences to create small parks on people's doorsteps. That kind of thing probably.

[keano77]

Lord Andrew Adonis quits. Good riddance traitor

Ps Happy New Year all

[Alan Medic]

Very tabloidesque of you keano77.

This is his resignation letter. It's content should concern reasonable people.

https://news.sky.com/story/read-lord-adonis-letter-to-pm-in-full-as-labour-peer-quits-government-role-11188763

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Lord Andrew Adonis quits. Good riddance traitor

>

> Ps Happy New Year all

Ah, so you've reduced yourself to calling people who disagree with you 'traitor'. Nice. Just lost any respect I had for you.

I've got no time for this trend of defining opponents of Brexit as traitors, it's disgusting.

And why is it that Leave voters heap opprobium on the heads of anyone who is even mildly critical of how Brexit is being handled? Has it not occurred to anyone that some of them might have a point? The blanket refusal to countenance any form of disquiet or disagreement is palpably disturbing.

[keano77]

The adjective is justified in this case. There are times when you have to call a spade a spade. Lord Adonis has made an ass of himself and any right-minded Remainers should be squirming with embarrassment that he is damaging their cause.

He's a Blair crony who has got to where he is through patronage. The fact he's never been elected probably explains his contempt for democracy - a nationalist spasm is how he describes a result he refuses to accept.

See Martine Croxall's interview with him on the BBC News channel. He looked like a swivel-eyed loon. Instead of using his position to help bring the country together he has deliberately sought to sow discord and division in the couple of weeks before the country starts the second round of very difficult negotiations.

He trots out the same old guff about our children having to sort out this mess yet he was instrumental in opening the way on tuition fees that have resulted in a whole generation of young adults being enslaved by debt before they start out in life.

As the government's infrastructure tsar Lord Adonis had a golden opportunity to make a name for himself for all the right reasons. Freed from the EU Britain can create a golden future fit for the 21st century.

Where are the big infrastructure ideas Lord Adonis? Elon Musk is developing the hyperloop and transpod tube system. Jeff Bezos and others are building rockets aiming for the stars and mining asteroids. The Chinese are building smart motorways that will defrost themselves and recharge cars as they drive. Under Lord Adonis we'd be lucky to get a few potholes filled.

Instead of nipping over to Brussels to prostrate himself and pledge fealty to 'my liege' like some feudal vassal, Lord Adonis should have kept his gob shut and got on with his job.

Good riddance.

[Blah Blah]

No Keano. You just typify the aggressive tone that seems to follow the Brexit brigade like a bad smell. Haviing a difference of opinion does not make anyone a traitor and whilst you might make some valid points above, your tone is so bad tempered that it deminishes any point you are trying to make.

The establishment is indeed full of cronies, but leaving the EU is not going to change one bit of that is it? This is what you hard leavers don't seem to understand. You have just given unfettered powers to people you claim to despise. And when Workers have no protections and have to work round the clock to make ends meet in tax haven Britian, who will you blame then?

And as for the actul resignation letter, he is spot on in so many areas. Day to day government has stopped for this circus which will almost certainly end with a soft form of Brexit, because no-one with any common sense can see a better option.

[Alan Medic]

Agree with Blah Blah.The use of the word 'traitor' has become popular with the apologists for Brexit when anyone casts doubts upon the wisdom of it. It sounds just threatening enough to make one wonder if it has violent undertones.

Anyone who uses it in the context of Brexit doesn't merit a response, as by using it they have nullified any possible legitimate argument they might have had.

[poch]

The hard Brexit lot wouldn't come out with all the traitor, saboteur stuff if they weren't feeling rattled. The lies about the NHS, the billions it's going to cost to leave, and our economy stuttering while Eurozone recovers are making them feel less than confident hence all the bullying and the aggression. If they were feeling cool, calm and collected you wouldn't see constant recourse to this sort of language.

[Multifish]

I think the trouble with Brexit is that there are a lot of conflicting signals arising now and there have been historically. Constitutional changes were made without the usual referendum route and the initial entry into the EU was falsely advertised in a lot of quarters. Maastricht and Lisbon were signed without seeking consent from the electorate.

The most recent general election resulted in the electorate electing candidates whose party manifestos pledged to leave the single market, the winning party pledging to leave the single market and customs union. So, democratically speaking, that's what should be happening. Considering the history of constitutional change without a referendum many people wonder whether we do have a democracy or the illusion of a democracy.

When you have ruling public figures declaring their wish to continue the trend of shaping the constitution while simultaneously contradicting the expressed will of the electorate then it reinforces the perception of an illusion of democracy and I don't really blame people for using the word "traitor". It might sound rude but it's not a rude word and he is betraying a widely held principle.

[poch]

But the Labour vote in particular was very split. Lots of Labour Brexit voters were obviously very comfortable with the manifesto pledge to leave the single market, but there were lots of other Labour voters, like me, who voted for Labour because TM's version of Brexit seemed so ridiculously severe, and because we wanted to give the Tories a kick re. NHS and schools. There's been some interesting polling recently on how divided Labour voters are on all of this. I don't think you can necessarily extrapolate from the general election that the UK feels comfortable with a hard Brexit. TM would have got her mandate if that were the case. She made Brexit the central theme in her campaign.

[JoeLeg]

Multifish Wrote:

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>

> When you have ruling public figures declaring

> their wish to continue the trend of shaping the

> constitution while simultaneously contradicting

> the expressed will of the electorate then it

> reinforces the perception of an illusion of

> democracy and I don't really blame people for

> using the word "traitor". It might sound rude but

> it's not a rude word and he is betraying a widely

> held principle.

(Edited because there's so much in this paragraph that makes me furious and I'm not going there, suffice to say at least Keano backs up his arguments when challenged.)

[Blah Blah]

Poch is right. Polls consistently now show no more than 20% support a hard brexit. This does not surprise me though, when only one third of the available electorate voted leave. We will never know how the third that did not vote would have voted of course. And yes, TM did fight her election on brexit, expecting a landside. It did not happen because Parliamentary elections are still fought along party lines in the main. Cameron made the same mistake in thinking that UKIP success in MEP elections would translate into gains in a domestic Parliamentary election at the Tories expense. The referendum will go down as the biggest mistake ever made for political expediancy by any party in history.

What really annoys me though, is how some think the governments we elect fair and square, should consult us on the things they don't like. We can't have it both ways. Either we trust those we elect to make decisions on our behalf, or we have a referendum every time government wants to introduce a new bill, sign a treaty or trade deal - ridiculous. If we don't like a government, we get to change our minds every 5 years, and parties always break manifesto promises. I could list tons of broken promises by both main parties over the decades.

We don't see a lot of what is involved in running an economy from our armchairs. It is complex stuff. The fact is that we can not just 'walk away' from 40 years of trading and economic alliance like it no longer matters. There are millions of jobs impacted, depending on what kind of deal we agree with the EU. There are business considerations, research partnerships, aviation standards, all of these things are complex relationships that can not be modified overnight if we are to keep the benefits they bring. And most leave voters have no clue about that complexity at all, and worse still they don't care.

Those of us that are fighting for a soft brexit are doing so because we really care about the economy of this country, not because we are traitors. Many people have fought for decades to make this country one of the least racist and xenophobic in the world, and a modern day Enoch Powell has put that all at risk, and for what? Farage can go crawl back under the stone he belongs. And those of you sucked in by his nonsense had better understand that he and his ilk are not interested in a better economy for the many, they are interested only in lining their own pockets by stripping away regulation (like worker protections) and turning this country into a tax haven for big business and the wealthy. I posted a link somewhere of James Dyson setting out his reasons for wanting out of the EU - That is what these people conned the public into voting for!!!

[Multifish]

I don't read many but the polls I've read have only included 5000-10000, results on issues vary from week to week and people are aware that they don't have binding consequences when they respond so I don't think they will be used as evidence in a meaningful way in parliament.

I agree that there are some Labour voters that would have voted Labour for a "softer" Brexit but considering Jeremy Corbyn's history of not being the EU's biggest fan and the manifesto pledge the logic doesn't stack up, unless you factor in that Labour MPs might renege on their manifesto pledge and/or people didn't know what they were voting for when they voted Labour.

Most people I know don't read manifestos, they ask other people. If you can spread a rumour that Labour will help us remain in remain constituencies and the rumour that they will help us leave in leave constituencies you may improve your election results but in the end the only reliable evidence of their intentions are written in the manifesto on public record for all to access. I agree that Labour's wording on the single market issue implied a possible "re-badge" but it was unspecific about the details so they have given the PM a lot of latitude even though she didn't get a majority, if Labour had won then the latitude would be theirs to play with.

[uncleglen]

So Blah Blah thinks people were 'conned' into voting Brexit- Yet again the Remoaners are painting the Leavers as unable to make up their own minds. It is obvious that people voted according to their own experiences and what they see going on in their own backyards because everyone was bombarded with so much conflicting rubbish and lies from both sides that that was the only thing they could do.

It explains why, in the North, that although people voted Brexit they also voted Labour in the election.....although Corbyn et al were anti-EU because the EU are anti-Democracy...(that fence must be firmly wedged up his jacksy now judging by what he came out with recently!)

[JoeLeg]

Wow. An admittal from UG that the Leave campaign indulged in "conflicting rubbish and lies".

[uncleglen]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> Wow. An admittal from UG that the Leave campaign

> indulged in "conflicting rubbish and lies".

Yes but after the result the doom-mongering and personal insults from the Remainers blew all that out of the water- and the EU politicians were a complete joke as they threw their toys out of the pram on a daily basis and showed themselves up, at last, for the total charlatans they really are

[Blah Blah]

UG finally admits the referendum campaign was flawed and people could not vote on the real considerations, over their own anecdotal bubbles. Are we finally getting somewhere?

So by your own admission UG, surely it is folly to continue with a process decided by flawed logic?

How about a second referendum fought on truth, and detailed discussion of just what is at stake (good and bad) and what leaving actually entails, both short and long term? At least then people will be voting on the level of risk they are prepared to take, and not on an irrational hatred of things that don't actually define our economy.

[Multifish]

Parties break manifestos but they're not supposed to and it's designed to be a clear indication of their intent not a list of possible suggestions, perhaps the PM is aware that some people voted Labour with the idea of remaining in the single market but on paper she's got a clear instruction from Labour voters.

Brexit is complex but most people are employees, employers or know one of the two. People were able to discuss Brexit with their bosses or people they know, some of the unions and businesses were pro Brexit and some remain. The media had a constant flow of information on the radio, TV, newspapers and social media. People could verify the information they were hearing by looking at different sources. That's not necessarily what happened but retaking the vote would be ignoring the first vote without enacting it and ignoring a democratic decision, if that is done then we're are in a situation where our vote only counts if we vote how most of the current MPs want us to vote.

Personally I don't think that people who aren't involved in implementing Brexit but still advocate for remaining are traitors, they're just exercising free speech and should have that speech heard by their representatives. I don't think that MPs that voted against the EU referendum act are traitors to try and stop Brexit. The breakdown in democracy comes when an MP votes for the EU referendum act and then votes against the result, I wouldn't call them a traitor but I wouldn't correct someone that did because the definition applies in my view. And the Lords are there to revise laws, not block them so preventing Brexit would be undemocratic for them too.

[Blah Blah]

But referendums are not finite. They can be and often are repeated. What we have is a referendum so won by the skin of the teeth that the victors are terrified of losing a second one and are desperately clinging on tooth and nail. It has nothing to do with democratic will. Democracy allows us to change our minds.

[keano77]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> But referendums are not finite. They can be and

> often are repeated. What we have is a referendum

> so won by the skin of the teeth that the victors

> are terrified of losing a second one and are

> desperately clinging on tooth and nail. It has

> nothing to do with democratic will. Democracy

> allows us to change our minds.

A second referendum will only settle matters if the leavers win it again.

If remainers win it things will be more divided than ever. It would be 1-1 so to speak so we'd need a third and final referendum. Brenda from Bristol would be at the end of her tether.

[JoeLeg]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> JoeLeg Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Wow. An admittal from UG that the Leave

> campaign

> > indulged in "conflicting rubbish and lies".

>

> Yes but after the result the doom-mongering and

> personal insults from the Remainers blew all that

> out of the water-

You have been personally insulting Remain voters since before the referendum, so maybe have a word with yourself before you accuse others, eh? As for 'doom-mongers'? Well here you're a hypocrite too, how about the rumour spread by the Leave campaign that Turkey was about to join?

No,you were happy to win using lies and deception.

and the EU politicians were a

> complete joke as they threw their toys out of the

> pram on a daily basis and showed themselves up, at

> last, for the total charlatans they really are

So, so different to our politicians, eh?

Listen up mate, Adonis is a bit of a joke frankly, but he had a few things spot on on his resignation letter. Not the least of which is that we're currently being governed by fools. 'Twas ever thus I suppose, but you don't care because you got what you wanted. The nation is being led up the garden path. Evause the Leave campaign wasn't ready to negotiate, and now you're already blaming others for your own failings.