Brexit View

[Loz]

keano77 Wrote:

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> I'm not a great fan of The Guardian but who wrote that crap?

>

>> In other words, the UK may not be a member of the single market,

>

> We don't want to be

But that's exactly the 'compromise' - that the UK won't be a member of the single market, but it will have to align it's rules and regulations to the EU. All the disadvantages of being in the single market, but with few of the advantages.

A special kind of brilliant, don't you think?

>

> or have any direct ability to shape its rules in future?

>

> How does half-wit writer draw this conclusion?

Easy. At the moment, the UK has quite a say in EU rules and regs. It also must abide by them.

As from Brexit, the UK has no say in EU rules and regulations (as it will no longer have any voting capacity), but must align it's rules and regs.

>

>> , but it could yet have to play by them in perpetuity.

>

> The EU probably won't exist in 25 years let alone

> perpetuity.

It might not. But if it does, then the UK will be aligned to it's rules.

In other words, Brexit in name only, except that the UK will be voiceless. So the whole 'take back control' has become 'lose any semblance of control'.

Remainers like me are very happy with the deal. You, on the other hand, just got sold down the river.

[Blah Blah]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Yes, Bojo seems untouchable and I think none of

> us

> > really understand why.

>

> I can understand why none of YOU can understand

> why.

> AND talk of millionaire Tory Backbenchers- how

> come Tony Bliar walked away with a ?25 million

> property portfolio- some kind of socialism that

> was!

You do write some rubbish sometimes. Bojo is a privileged Etonian with an establishment network that keeps him there. So yes, I DO fully understand why he has the position in the Tory Party he does. And why on earth are you banging on about socialism? Where did I even say privileged and out of touch politicians was only a Tory problem?

Being a rabid rightwinger does not make you better than any rabid left winger either btw.

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> Keep moving those goalposts UG, it's so much fun

> to watch. You do love speaking in riddles - why

> don't you try writing more than a bigoted sounbite

> for once, give us the full broadside of your

> wisdom? Or is it easier to despise what you don't

> like?

>

> Let the hate flow through you, embrace your

> destiny young padawan!

Quite. The truth is that common sense always wins out over extremism and bigotry in the end, and people like UC better get used to it.

[Blah Blah]

Agree with you Loz. i think remainers are happy with this. Of course there is still a lot of complicated stuff to work out but the there are two things that are clear I think.

1. No-one on any side of the negotiations wants a hard brexit. The damage that would cause to the UK and the EU is understood.

2. Any deal will require give and take and felxibility written into it and a transition deal will be part of that deal.

Both of those things seem the right solution to a country so split down the middle. Had leave won by an overwhelming margin, then it would be different, but they didn't. A middle ground can be the only solution to please as many people as possible.

[malumbu]

According to the Mail, Express and Torygraph, we've just won World War III. Well done Winston May, Bomber Davies and the like.

[keano77]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > I'm not a great fan of The Guardian but who

> wrote that crap?

> >

> >> In other words, the UK may not be a member of

> the single market,

> >

> > We don't want to be

>

> But that's exactly the 'compromise' - that the UK

> won't be a member of the single market, but it

> will have to align it's rules and regulations to

> the EU. All the disadvantages of being in the

> single market, but with few of the advantages.

>

> A special kind of brilliant, don't you think?

>

>

> >

> > or have any direct ability to shape its rules in

> future?

> >

> > How does half-wit writer draw this conclusion?

>

> Easy. At the moment, the UK has quite a say in EU

> rules and regs. It also must abide by them.

>

> As from Brexit, the UK has no say in EU rules and

> regulations (as it will no longer have any voting

> capacity), but must align it's rules and regs.

>

>

> >

> >> , but it could yet have to play by them in

> perpetuity.

> >

> > The EU probably won't exist in 25 years let

> alone

> > perpetuity.

>

> It might not. But if it does, then the UK will be

> aligned to it's rules.

>

> In other words, Brexit in name only, except that

> the UK will be voiceless. So the whole 'take back

> control' has become 'lose any semblance of

> control'.

>

> Remainers like me are very happy with the deal.

> You, on the other hand, just got sold down the

> river.

I'm not sure about that Loz. I haven't seen the 15-page document and as usual the devil will be in the detail.

You say "Remainers like me are very happy with the deal. You, on the other hand, just got sold down the

river."

If by 'you' you refer to Brexiters, what you are really saying is democrary has just been sold down the river. 1f you are gloating over that then it is very sad. I don't think that was your intention.

However I'm not sure anyone has been sold down the river just yet. It will depend on the terms of the trade deal and we'll need to be very careful there.

It is well known that the EU does not want the UK to have a competitive advantage when we leave and will try to insist on all manner of stipulations to shackle our negotiations with the rest of the world.

As regards the deal just reached on the first part. Overall it doesn't seem to be a disaster. We'll need a transition deal of at least a couple of years so in effect we won't really have left during this time so will have to adhere to the rules. Our divorce bill be will phased over many years rather than paid in a lump sum so the ECJ still having influence for eight years can be viewed against that. And personally I have no problem with protecting EU citizens already in the UK at the time we leave but please don't send us any more of your criminal classes before that deadline.

As far as I can see 'alignment' only applies to trade with the EU. When we are finally free to make our own trade agreements there is nothing to stop the UK importing chlorinated fowl from the US for UK consumption for example, or indeed to produce it here for sale to other non-EU countries should we wish to. Don't forget many countries have different food safety laws. The US for example bans certain French cheeses as being unhygenic. We would need to adhere to the laws of the countries we were trading with.

But the EU will try to insert conditions to prevent anything that will affect its markets. It doesn't want cheaper US beef, chickens and turkeys coming in to the UK as it will affect its exports to us.

We need to be very careful what we sign up to otherwise democracy really will be sold down the river.

[JoeLeg]

Genuine question Keano - given that the question was Leave/Remain, and we have triggered A50, how is it potentially undemocratic (forgive the crude phrasing)?

I've long worried that part of the problems we face is that people voted Leave for many reasons, and they will be cheesed off when events don't mirror their vision of the UK. But I'm not sure how it could be otherwise? We were asked a question, that's all. We don't get a say in how the implement the result (general elections aside).

[keano77]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Genuine question Keano - given that the question

> was Leave/Remain, and we have triggered A50, how

> is it potentially undemocratic (forgive the crude

> phrasing)?

>

> I've long worried that part of the problems we

> face is that people voted Leave for many reasons,

> and they will be cheesed off when events don't

> mirror their vision of the UK. But I'm not sure

> how it could be otherwise? We were asked a

> question, that's all. We don't get a say in how

> the implement the result (general elections

> aside).

Only in the sense that the answer to the question was leave.

I'm not too worried about the transition deal itself. The country needs time to adjust and effectively we will still be tied to the EU. It's understandable that we will still need to abide by EU rules in this period, so called alignment. Also when we finally, finally, manage to break away obviously when we sell products and services to the EU those will need to comply with their rules and standards.

What worries me is that the EU will try to do two things:

a) Grant a transition deal with all sorts of restrictive conditions on the basis that

b) when the transition deal expires we cannot do x, y, or z when striking deals with other nations on the basis it would be a competitive advantage and they'll fine us etc etc

If that happens the Leave answer, and democracy in this country, will have been sabotaged and betrayed.

What the EU has to realise is they cannot impose conditions 'in perpetuity' on what will then be a sovereign country again as to what it can and can't do with others.

If the UK decides to introduce chlorinated chicken plants to sell those chickens to half a dozen non-EU countries it is nothing to do with the EU as long as we don't sell them into the EU. It wouldn't surprise me if the EU banned EU citizens from working in such plants.

The EU will be up to every trick to preserve its protectionist trading bloc.

I'm not sure Theresa May and our current negotiating team are the right people for the next stage of negotiations.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

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> What the EU has to realise is they cannot impose

> conditions 'in perpetuity' on what will then be a

> sovereign country again as to what it can and

> can't do with others.

The EU has the right to offer whatever deal it wants, and we have the right to accept or reject it. Naturally the EU is interested in reaching whatever deal is to its best advantage, just as the UK is. It's a rather pathetic spectacle to see the Brexiters shouting "Yeah, reject everything to do with the EU!" and at the same time whining "The nasty EU are refusing to give us the exit deal we want!" As they're so fond of reminding us, they won, now they have to face the consequences.

As the late A.A.Gill percipiently said, "We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they?re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they?re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

Really, that?s their best offer? That?s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: '?Ello luv, you?re looking nice today. Would you like some?"

[JoeLeg]

Keano, everything you say makes sense, but I can't help feeling that - as Rendell points out - there's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance on the part of many Leave voters who seem to believe that we should stick two fingers up to the EU and plow on regardless, while at the same time insisting that the EU somehow cut us a nice deal.

We're Leaving, that much is plain; beyond a cetain pragmatism they're under no obligation to show us any special favours. Of course they'll be up to every trick - so will the USA when we talk to them, and at least the EU doesn't want a big fat slice of the NHS, which America certainly will!

On short, I don't really understand why you're surprised that they aren't being nicer to us.

On one point we certainly agree - those in charge of negotiating all this are not up to it. I recall the day after the vote, a prominent Leave supporting MP asserting to Faisal Islam that it was the responsibility of the govt to have a plan for Leaving, that the Leave campaign didn't have to have one! Well, the Leave comapaign most. Ertainly should have had one. They didn't, not even a sniff of one, and now we may pay the price for that.

There's a lot of people who think we should walk away and demand to be treated nicely. I would say the Leave campaign did an awful job of educating them to the reality of how complex and fraught this task is. But of course they didn't, because to do so would have been to admit the possibility that things aren't automatically milk and honey.

[Alan Medic]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/09/global-powers-lobby-to-stop-special-brexit-deal-for-uk

It's about to get more difficult for the UK.

[keano77]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/09/g

> lobal-powers-lobby-to-stop-special-brexit-deal-for

> -uk

>

> It's about to get more difficult for the UK.

Is this the dawning recognition by the likes of Canada that after 7, 8 or 9 years of negotiation they've been sold a pig in a poke by the unelected EU bureaucrats?

:)

[JoeLeg]

Quite possibly.

Might there also be a dawning recollection amongst Leavers that we have bitten off waaaaay more than we can chew right now? And that possibly we weren't ready?

The EU is a lot of things, not all of them good. But one of the things they plainly were was 'more prepared than us'.

[uncleglen]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> Quite possibly.

>

> Might there also be a dawning recollection amongst

> Leavers that we have bitten off waaaaay more than

> we can chew right now? And that possibly we

> weren't ready?

>

> The EU is a lot of things, not all of them good.

> But one of the things they plainly were was 'more

> prepared than us'.

No- the UK needs its control back...we have been scuppered on industry, farming and fishing by the EU and that is probably why they let us in in the first place- to plunder.

The EU is, in the main, an unelected bunch of useless very expensive gravy-train bureaucrats. Much of the money given to Eastern Europe has disappeared because of corruption - FACT

As a born cynic I believe there is a hard core of politicians who are remainers because they are having a cushy time of it under the EU.

We have NOT benefited as a country in the EU- individuals in cities, especially London, have benefited greatly- if you look at the voting map for the referendum you will see the areas that voted remain and they are all rich areas. The Sandbanks area of Poole in Dorset is noticeable.

We will always have been ready. The EU was just prepared to be the thieving bunch of dictators and pirates that they always have been.

[JohnL]

Government is spinning this phase one agreement to mean different things to different people - OK that's what happens and no doubt Ireland and the EU have tried as well.

But 27 nations have to sign off on phase 1 still - and antagonising them doesn't help.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/some-of-you-irish-need-to-get-over-yourselves-sky-presenter-defends-coveney-interview-1.3321769

[Blah Blah]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> No- the UK needs its control back...we have been scuppered on industry, farming and fishing by the EU and that is probably why they let us in in the first place- to plunder.

Utter nonsense. Only 17% of all UK legislation is impacted by EU law and of that, it is overwhelmingly linked to laws that relate to trade and employment rights (50% of all laws realting to trade and employment are impacted, but then again 44% of our exports are derectly to the EU). There are agreements made in any trade deal relating to those things. Leaving the EU does not free us from having to conceed on that. CETA, for example, only includes 80% of food products for Canada, but in return, Canada has had to open up it's public sector to tendering from EU companies. That is what happens when a market of 40 million wants a deal with a market of 500 million.

> The EU is, in the main, an unelected bunch of useless very expensive gravy-train bureaucrats.

No it is not. The number of elected MEPs is 751. The commission and it's role in policy formation is similar to our own civil service which is also unelected. Someone has to do that work.

> Much of the money given to Eastern Europe has disappeared because of corruption - FACT

Then provide the evidence. Just because you say it is FACT is proof of nothing.

> As a born cynic I believe there is a hard core of politicians who are remainers because they are having a cushy time of it under the EU.

And I could similarly quote the head of Dyson, who backed leave, so that he can hire and fire at will - it is the removal of employment regulation and protections that these people want to see gone. Not a fairer economy for workers.

> We have NOT benefited as a country in the EU-

Nonsense. Here is a link to show where most EU grants heading for Britain go.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/01/mapped-where-in-the-uk-receives-most-eu-funding-and-how-does-thi/

It is not London as you can clearly see.

> individuals in cities, especially London, have benefited greatly- if you look at the voting map for the referendum you will see the areas that voted remain and they are all rich areas.

Wrong again. Most urban city areas voted remain. Also Wales and Scotland, neither of which are affluent in terms of UK GDP both voted remain.

The biggest losers from leaving the EU will be the very areas that can least afford to lose those grants and subsidies. The only people to blame for the southeast centric economy we have, are successive UK governments, who have failed to invest in regeneration and business outside of the southeast. Over reliance on the free market and city to sort it all out ergonomically. The problem with you rabbid leave suppoters UC, is that you blame the EU for everything, because that is a simple bogeyman for you. It is as though China and India and all those other Asian economies that have been able to undercut the West for decades do not exist. And whether we are in the EU or not, nothing will change in term of the establishment, and the dominence of global corporations in lobbying and shaping policy to favour their buiness interests over us the people.

[Blah Blah]

JohnL Wrote:

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> Government is spinning this phase one agreement to mean different things to different people - OK that's what happens and no doubt Ireland and the EU have tried as well.

>

> But 27 nations have to sign off on phase 1 still - and antagonising them doesn't help.

Yes, the spin the next day was baffling. And therein probably lies the longer term flaw in all of this. It is hard to see just how an agreement/ deal will be arrived at in the end to please everyone. My feeling is that the government will in the end, sign for a soft brexit and see what happens at the ballot box, and indeed in Parliament. The key thing here at this stage, is that May has saved her position for the time being. The biggest risk for the Tory party right now is a leadership challenge, followed by an election, follwed by a Corbyn government. This is why I think, the Tory hard brexiteers are stepping in line behind this. But the nearer we get to that leaving deadline, the more I think that current peace will fall apart.

[JohnL]

David Davis has now apparently retracted yesterdays comments. I never understand him anyway.

"Davis, the Brexit secretary, retracted the suggestion he made yesterday that the UK could back out of the commitments it had made on the Irish border. He said his comments had been misinterpreted. "

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/dec/11/theresa-may-statement-brexit-mps-commons-davis-seeks-to-heal-rift-with-ireland-over-brexit-deal-politics-live

[Earl Aelfheah]

The Irish Government has done more to protect the interests of UK citizens than our own representatives.

[JoeLeg]

uncleglen Wrote

> No- the UK needs its control back...we have been

> scuppered on industry, farming and fishing by the

> EU and that is probably why they let us in in the

> first place- to plunder.

Industry? We screwed ourselves there, by refusing to recognise that the rest of the world was outpacing us. I'm a big fan of unions, but even I know that in the 70's and 80's they did a lot of damage through believing they were invincible.

Farming? This country needs to wake up and smell the coffee where it's food supply chain is concerned. I don't think you know what you're talking about there.

Fishing? Yeah, I'll partly give you that one. But I would also point to the rise of the industrialisation of the industry which has forced many of the day boats out of business, which is a sign of the times, and nothing to do with the EU.

> The EU is, in the main, an unelected bunch of

> useless very expensive gravy-train bureaucrats.

Riiiiiight, because no civil service anywhere is beyond reproach? You are aware sure that Thatcher described Yes Minister as being pretty accurate?

> Much of the money given to Eastern Europe has

> disappeared because of corruption - FACT

Not saying you're wrong, but you have a proven track record of hating immigrants. Link for evidence please?

> As a born cynic I believe there is a hard core of

> politicians who are remainers because they are

> having a cushy time of it under the EU.

Well, firstly for a 'born cynic' you seem remarkably positive about how Leaving is going to work out for us. Secondly, I think it suits your view to believe that those whose opinions differ from you are only in it for the money. For some reason anyone who disagrees with you is some kind of selfish prick.

> We have NOT benefited as a country in the EU-

> individuals in cities, especially London, have

> benefited greatly

This is hugely innaccurate, as even a cursory glance at the distribution of EU grants will show. As Blah has pointed out, the relative prosperity of the south east is much more to do with government policy and supports my point that many Leave voters, particularly you, blame immigrants for problems that we made ourselves.

if you look at the voting map

> for the referendum you will see the areas that

> voted remain and they are all rich areas. The

> Sandbanks area of Poole in Dorset is noticeable.

And if governments had been more willing to address the problems at home it would be different. The EU is not responsible for domestic policy.

> We will always have been ready.

But this is manifestly untrue. We are not ready for this level of complex negotiations.

The EU was just

> prepared to be the thieving bunch of dictators and

> pirates that they always have been.

Why oh why do you think they would do anything other than behave with their own interests at heart? I genuinely don't understand why you think they should be otherwise? Of course they're going to drive an imsanely hard bargain, of course they're going to try and screw us. And so will every other nation who we deal oth. You seem to believe that he EU are particularly bad; they're not, they're a political organisation like any other, willing to screw over the other guy in their own best interests. And you think they're bad?! Wait till we deal with the USA!

Honestly, you seem to love in a world where you think the UK is owed something. We aren't.

[JohnL]

Guy Verhofstadt has tweeted that as he has now seen what David Davis said and it is unhelpful and undermines trust, European Parliament text will now reflect this and insist agreement is translated into legal text ASAP.

Well done Davis you clown :)

[Blah Blah]

Meanwhile in the real world...

https://www.ft.com/content/b48e4f3a-dc0e-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6

How long before those car plants slowly move out of the UK?

[Earl Aelfheah]

We don't want no foreign cheese anyway. We want Austin allegros and dairylee.

[Loz]

Looks like parliament just Took Back Control^TM

[JoeLeg]

Cue the howls of outrage from media and individuals who believe parliament should just rubber stamp whatever Davis says.

I'm constantly astonished by those who clamoured for UK sovereignty to be paramount, who then become furious when MP's actually do just that.

[JohnL]

Daily Mail on about Traitors again.

Even Sky points out they're going to use that to be seen as heroes - and will be more likely to rebel again.