Brexit View

[JoeLeg]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> It's been patently obvious from day 1 that all you

> people in your ED bubble have NO Idea what is

> going on in the poorer areas of the UK .....so I

> give up- you'll have to just suck it up when it

> comes.

Actually we do; certainly I do. And they been made plain to your bigoted, immigrant-hating backside for a long time.

But here's the thing - you think this is going to be some kind of magic spell which cures all your ills. Now, in the case of someone like Keano77, who I find to be a rational individ with an open mind (if something of a troll occasionally), it's possible that Brexit may deliver a good outcome.

But that isn't you. You're so filled with hatred and anger at what the world has become that you cannot find room in your heart for anything else. You rail against the immigrant and find comfort in the lies told by those on the fringes of reality, and nothing but the hardest of Brexits will satisfy you. Because ultimately, really, what you want is to make someone pay, to hurt someone for damaging the country you grew up in which was never really there to begin with.

I actually like debating with Brexiters. I believe on talking with the opposing view; I might learn something. But you espouse the worst of the Leave vote, the ones who "want their country back", but not because of what it might become. But in order to somehow take it back to a time and place that was more comforting to them, which strangely seems to coincide with there being less foreigners, but then whose going to do all those pesky 'immigrant jobs'? I'm still waiting, by the way, on your suggestions for dealing with that.

You too need to wake up. You think Brexit is a blank cheque to fund some kind of time machine. But you have no idea what we will end up with and will be angry at anything that doesn't expressly fit your view of how Britain should be.

Send Keano77 back in, he at least understand the dangers. You just keep descending further into hatred.

[Alan Medic]

uncleglen Wrote:

.....so I

> give up- you'll have to just suck it up when it

> comes.

As will you when greater poverty hits all of the country. At this stage I can only see, Brexit or no Brexit, that there will be (un)civil unrest, for differing reasons. After that a good chance that the UK will break up.

[heath81]

more often than not this is the outcome of many political or religious debates, people pushing their own views down the throats of others!!

[keano77]

heath81 Wrote:

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> more often than not this is the outcome of many

> political or religious debates, people pushing

> their own views down the throats of others!!

I think you are absolutely correct heath81.

I was disappointed with Alan Medic's post earlier. He posted a NY Times link. I thought I'll click on this (unusual for me), it might be an objective view from across the pond, or at least a different perspective. Sadly, it's written by our own Jenny Russell, from the (London) Times, that well known remainer. So, nothing new in the article and remainer Alan posts a link that agrees with his views. Nothing new here folks, move along.

Loz,

"The country is sick of low living standards, and polls show that people are fed up with austerity cuts to public spending. Voters wanted and expected Brexit to make them richer."

Correct. Cannot disagree with this part. As for your second paragraph yes, it might takes years to improve the lot of the less fortunate. What's wrong with that.

JoeLeg, it would be nice to bring a different perspective to many of the ideas expressed on this thread but it appears I'm verging on trolling (ie, disagreeing with the majority) so I'm going to adopt a lower profile and let the sewing circle reassure themselves.

🙂

[Seabag]

Correct me if i'm wrong. But the old ruling elite, (the ones who called for Brexit) who hate to have the Brussels ruling elite interfering with thier way of ruling (for centuries), want to 'take back control' so that they can rule without anyone from outside of the UK sticking their noses in.

Those people will be helping the impoverished, who they themselves kept impoverished throughout history. And they (the old ruling elite) won't be making themselves richer by chance in the process will they, no?

Those people will be making it better for the impoverished once Britain is out of anything that Europe may influence. Or making new rules and laws to make it better for them selves and their like, but not really much different for those outside or under their rule.

So maybe in 10 or 30 years time, the poorer will be less poor because the ruling elite will have had a change of heart and go against the grain of history.

In that case, I see the logic in the plan. And the impoverished voted for this?

On what basis. A blueprint, a consensus? Surely not on a bunch of promises or trust from the old ruling elite themselves?

Ha ha, no come on, stop kidding around.

[Loz]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Loz,

> "The country is sick of low living standards, and polls show that people are fed up with austerity

> cuts to public spending. Voters wanted and expected Brexit to make them richer."

>

> Correct. Cannot disagree with this part. As for your second paragraph yes, it might takes years to

> improve the lot of the less fortunate. What's

> wrong with that.

Because it is very unlikely that Brexit will 'improve the lot of the less fortunate'. And it is pretty much certain it will make things worse for them in the short to medium term.

Because many people that voted for Brexit think it is a panacea for the problems. A decade to get over the upheaval is the minimum we can expect, with lower GDP in that time. The knock-on effects of that will affect them directly - because guess who cops it when GDP drops? And, even if the Brexiteers can pull it off (which is doubtful), it is almost certain these 'poorer areas of the UK' will not see the benefits they are expecting. They've been sold a pup.

I'm reminded of the TV interview in the weeks following the Brexit vote, where a Welsh guy said, "Really, what has the EU ever done for us". The interviewer pointed out they were standing in an EU funded sports centre. Or Cornwall, who were surprised to find that all that EU funding they get might stop after Brexit.

[miga]

Despite all that, in a hypothetical second referendum, would people still vote Brexit?

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> heath81 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > more often than not this is the outcome of many

> > political or religious debates, people pushing

> > their own views down the throats of others!!

>

> I think you are absolutely correct heath81.

>

> I was disappointed with Alan Medic's post earlier.

> He posted a NY Times link. I thought I'll click on

> this (unusual for me), it might be an objective

> view from across the pond, or at least a different

> perspective. Sadly, it's written by our own Jenny

> Russell, from the (London) Times, that well known

> remainer. So, nothing new in the article and

> remainer Alan posts a link that agrees with his

> views. Nothing new here folks, move along.

Is that in the same way that a Remainer might say "nothing new here folks, move along", when a well-known Brexiter writes an article? Just because it conforms to a viewpoint someone disagrees with doesn't make it irrelevant.

>

> Loz,

> "The country is sick of low living standards, and

> polls show that people are fed up with austerity

> cuts to public spending. Voters wanted and

> expected Brexit to make them richer."

>

> Correct. Cannot disagree with this part. As for

> your second paragraph yes, it might takes years to

> improve the lot of the less fortunate. What's

> wrong with that.

Nothing is wrong with that per se, but as Seabag points out, there is a huge question mark over whether Brexit will deliver what it promised.

We live in an age of instant gratification and election-cycle promises made and usually broken or at least evaded. One of the main things that dissuaded me from voting Leave was the total absence of anything (and I mean ANYTHING) concrete from the Leave campaign. I was essentially being asked to take on faith that it would all somehow become better. On a matter of this magnitude I require more than than a demand for my blind allegiance to support it.

Many people voted Leave because they wanted change, but they have little to no understanding that the change they want will, if it ever comes, be delivered imperceptibly slowly. If the Leave campaign had said "we'll make your lives better, but it's going to take at least a decade" I'm not sure they would've been so well received, but at least they would've been more honest. Too many people think that somehow come March 2019 it will be a land of milk and honey, and Brexit politicians are doing nothing to play down those expectations.

>

> JoeLeg, it would be nice to bring a different

> perspective to many of the ideas expressed on this

> thread but it appears I'm verging on trolling (ie,

> disagreeing with the majority) so I'm going to

> adopt a lower profile and let the sewing circle

> reassure themselves.

>

Well, ok, that's your choice. I would say it isn't trolling to disagree, and the minority view must always be heard, but to be fair some of your comments are a bit troll-esque, though I think that's just your posting style, and nothing to do with Brexit in particular.

This is a Remain-heavy area, and if you stick your head into the debate then you can't be surprised at the responses. To describe it as a sewing circle is no more valid than me levelling the same comment at any number of forums where a Leave mentality prevails - go and check out anything populated by the military, fishermen or most rural communities.

It's a shame if you don't want to engage in debate, but that doesn't mean you have to belittle people who don't think the same way. We've ended up with some fairly polarised opinion in this country precisely because of that mindset.

[JohnL]

Spreadsheet Phil being charged with planning a takeover whilst Theresa May is on holiday.

Someones spreading rumours Boris is going to resign.

[Alan Medic]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40774251

Free movement to end in March 2019. Is this the PM trying to put Hammond in his place? When will the Conservatives understand the mess they have caused and that this isn't about playing party games anymore?

Have they even a plan for the Irish border?

[Loz]

miga Wrote:

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> Despite all that, in a hypothetical second

> referendum, would people still vote Brexit?

Quite possibly. Many people, rightly or wrongly, still do actually believe Brexit will make their lives better.

Which is why Brexiters are so very against the concept of a referendum on the final deal - once people actually see what the future really is, they may not be so keen.

[JoeLeg]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40774251

>

> Free movement to end in March 2019. Is this the PM

> trying to put Hammond in his place? When will the

> Conservatives understand the mess they have caused

> and that this isn't about playing party games

> anymore?

>

> Have they even a plan for the Irish border?

This will be...interesting. If they really are going to end free movement in 2019 then the question becomes what replaces it? The Irish border is indeed a massive question, and I don't see how they can have one rule for Ireland and another for everyone else.

I mean, if you're going to end free movement then does it get replaced by a visa system? I can't see how we restrict it without requiring people to hold a visa, anything else is still allowing entry to the country. Perhaps we can allow people to apply for a work visa once they have entered the country or something, but mostly this seems like a can of worms to me. If they mean ending all free movement, entirely, then we'll surely need some kind of system like any other non-EU country, and I'm just not convinced that we will be ready in less than two years.

[Blah Blah]

And where does that leave David Davis in terms of negotiating a 'transition phase' to protect trade?

To me, that 2019 line sounds like election talk. Still keeping with Brexit means Brexit.....

[red devil]

As it stands I think if the Remain side mobilised the youth vote like Labour did in the election, then Remain would win a second ref, albeit a close win. If a 2nd ref was held once the terms of the deal are known, then I'd expect it to be a bigger win for Remain.

I'm sure what riles most Remainers is how the Brexiteers have totally dismissed how close the vote was and the concerns of Remainers. They haven't taken the narrow margin into account at all. It's all very ''We've won, fook you''.

I'd like to think that if the Ref result had been the other way round with a close win for Remain, that the Gov would've taken this on board and addressed concerns from those who voted for Brexit. We've witnessed the current Gov sitting-up and taking notice that a lot of people in the election voted against their plans for further austerity, and accordingly they have dropped some policies. It's a shame that the same Gov can't do likewise with Brexit, which to me makes it clear that the 'Brexit at any cost' brigade are still pulling May's strings...

[JoeLeg]

It's possible that the ending of free movement won't really change anything at all, that registration will be about as effective as registering for the local neighbourhood watch.

If you want to control immigration then you either need to stop people at point of entry (this requiring a visa system), or allow them in but only permit those with visa's to have a job (putting the onus on business to police immigration). Simple fact, as recognised by Hammond (and most of UK business), Johnson, even Davis, is that they can't just turn off the flow of labour to this country. Rightly or wrongly we are currently too reliant on low-skilled immigrant workers. We won't be ready to cut them off by March 2019, and I don't see how they can materially change things that fast.

[red devil]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> If they mean ending all free

> movement, entirely, then we'll surely need some

> kind of system like any other non-EU country, and

> I'm just not convinced that we will be ready in

> less than two years.

20 months left and they still haven't got to first base yet, they won't be ready, cue total chaos if it happens. As well as the legalities, they will have to set-up special departments, recruiting staff etc plus there's major infrastructure works required around the ports. It's a joke statement from a joke Gov...

[JoeLeg]

red devil Wrote:

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>

> I'm sure what riles most Remainers is how the

> Brexiteers have totally dismissed how close the

> vote was and the concerns of Remainers. They

> haven't taken the narrow margin into account at

> all. It's all very ''We've won, fook you''.

This is very true - there's been a near-total rejection of the idea that the 48% are still citizens of this country.

However, in fairness a lot of communities felt they weren't being listened to by London and the other big urban areas, and successive govts have sidelined them. We as a nation have treated them as an irrelevance, and I've felt for a long time we shouldn't. That said, those are parts of the world where it's still pretty easy to find, shall we say, unenlightened views, and they've been very happy to take EU funds when offered, so I'm not sure that they are blameless.

> I'd like to think that if the Ref result had been

> the other way round with a close win for Remain,

> that the Gov would've taken this on board and

> addressed concerns from those who voted for

> Brexit. We've witnessed the current Gov sitting-up

> and taking notice that a lot of people in the

> election voted against their plans for further

> austerity, and accordingly they have dropped some

> policies.

Maybe, maybe not. I've seen a lot of comments from Brexiters to the tune of "if we'd lost we'd have accepted the result", which I don't believe for a second, and I think we would've seen a change in policy as a result of the pressure. Whether it would've been enough is a different matter.

It's a shame that the same Gov can't do

> likewise with Brexit, which to me makes it clear

> that the 'Brexit at any cost' brigade are still

> pulling May's strings...

The Euro-sceptics scare May more than the Remainers. I can only imagine the back room dealing, threatening and begging going on. I have no idea how she'll get it all done.

[red devil]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> > I'd like to think that if the Ref result had

> been

> > the other way round with a close win for

> Remain,

> > that the Gov would've taken this on board and

> > addressed concerns from those who voted for

> > Brexit. We've witnessed the current Gov

> sitting-up

> > and taking notice that a lot of people in the

> > election voted against their plans for further

> > austerity, and accordingly they have dropped

> some

> > policies.

>

> Maybe, maybe not. I've seen a lot of comments from

> Brexiters to the tune of "if we'd lost we'd have

> accepted the result", which I don't believe for a

> second, and I think we would've seen a change in

> policy as a result of the pressure. Whether it

> would've been enough is a different matter.

Farage is on record before the Ref saying if it was a close vote for Remain the fight would go on, in fact he quoted 52-48% as an example.

I suspect immigration is a reason why a lot voted for Brexit in the poorer areas, but that is something that can be addressed without leaving the EU. There are already means within the EU to control immigration more than we currently do. Plus there's more immigration from non-EU countries, something we have total control over. The Hard Brexiteers ignored all this and just allowed immigration to be a convenient stick with which to hit the EU with...

[JoeLeg]

red devil

>

> Farage is on record before the Ref saying if it

> was a close vote for Remain the fight would go on,

> in fact he quoted 52-48% as an example.

And that right there showed up the hollowness of UKIP's position. After the result they were perfectly happy to admonish and abuse others for 'not accepting the result', having already stated that under the same circumstances they would not accept it if they lost.

> I suspect immigration is a reason why a lot voted

> for Brexit in the poorer areas, but that is

> something that can be addressed without leaving

> the EU. There are already means within the EU to

> control immigration more than we currently do.

> Plus there's more immigration from non-EU

> countries, something we have total control over.

> The Hard Brexiteers ignored all this and just

> allowed immigration to be a convenient stick with

> which to hit the EU with...

Immigration was pretty much the ball game, and Leave knew it. We are always happy to blame our troubles on foreigners - we have a proud history of it in this land - and in fairness there are parts of this country that have suffered because of it. But we've thrown the baby out with the bath water now, and when the promised changes don't occur quickly enough - which they won't because most people have no understanding of the complexity involved and the Gov isn't bothering to explain it - there will be anger.

[JohnL]

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/breaking-prime-ministers-spokesman-says-nothing-new/

[Alan Medic]

This is all so vague. Wonder how will my EU passport holding wife and son will be affected? She's lived here 30 years and he was born here. I've also read somewhere that the implementation of the technology to deal with the end of FOM will take a lot longer than 2 years.

[Seabag]

Boris & Fox are to join forces in a leadership takeover

[miga]

You can expect a whole lot more hassle on the border when you go for holidays, for a start. Unless you take out British citizenship, which itself will take yonks as everyone else does the same.

[Alan Medic]

Seabag Wrote:

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> Boris & Fox are to join forces in a leadership

> takeover

Possible misuse of the word 'leadership'?

[red devil]

Some stats on the General Election. Hopefully Corbyn will take note of Labour voters' clear preference for a soft Brexit... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40630242