Get off the forum people! 'One born every minute' is on....

[littleEDfamily]

I think nonsense, Keef, but I did think about it for a minute. One of the hormones you produce while labouring makes you very susceptible to suggestion and if you are not encouraged by someone with compassion and knowledge, you can completely lose your confidence. That said, I had one pretty awful midwife and her bedside manner was what prompted me to deliver my own baby (not something that I would plan to repeat).

Edited to add 'losing your confidence' may sound benign enough, but feeling unsupported is, from what I have read, a main cause of the ubiquitous 'failure to progress'. And I believe it! My sister, as an example, was labouring well until a junior doctor waltzed in and told her she wasn't dilating quickly enough, and whaddayaknow, everything ground to a halt.

[prdarling]

Keef are you saying you think everybody should have the right to an elective c-section? Who would pay for this though? I think the NHS is fairly drained of resources without giving peiople the option of major surgery that requires an anaesthetist, consultant and who-knows how many support staff...when actual this surgery is really only needed for life-saving circumstances.

While I agree that women should have the right to pain relief, home or hospital birth etc, I don't see how anyone it would be workable to give everybody the right to a serious operation. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying?

I also don't agree that everyone should be necessarily given an epidural the second they demand one. It's not always the best course and maybe I am naive but i feel experienced midwives would have this in mind when they delay it. I know I was desperate for an epidural with my first son and it's clear to me now that the midwife who kept popping off to find the anaesthetist, do the paperwork etc was really just stalling as she could see that I was labouring really quickly and I was coping well, even though I was clearly in pain. Am so very grateful she did as I had my baby, intervention free, about 3 hours after the epidural discussion began and am fairly sure I'd have still been there hours later possibly dealing with a forceps/ventouse birth if I had gone ahead.

As for the badge of honour of a natural birth...while I agree, a small minority are fairly irritating in their I'm-the-best-mother-in-the-world attitude to natural births, breastfeeding kids in school uniforms and only feeding their children tofu, some people are just bloody proud of their achievement. Smugness is wrong, but pride in doing something which is really really difficult shouldn't really be knocked.

Best of luck to all of you awaiting babies...whichever way it happens you will get your beautiful baby and you will feel like the most important person in the world and nothing can take away that thrill :)

[zeban]

As a really really small framed woman in every sense, 4"10 with extremely narrow hips, I was just wondering what other tiny framed women have experienced with childbirth if there are any on this forum? I know the usual mantra is if you're small you're child is likely to be small, my doctor has already told me this, but what if your OH isn't?! I'd appreciate advice from tiny women please!

[new mother]

"while I agree, a small minority are fairly irritating in their I'm-the-best-mother-in-the-world attitude to natural births, breastfeeding kids in school uniforms and only feeding their children tofu, "

Hilarious quote from pr darling. Yuck - Tofu is horrible, IMO!

LEDF, I don't mind explaining at all and thank you for the tactful way you phrased the query.

I had an elective for the following reaons:

1. Labour is totally unpredictable, can change very quickly from normal to disaster scenarios and even those who have uneventful pgcies and are extremely fit are not guaranteed straightforward deliveries. (and I wasn't extremely fit!)

2. Because fewer and fewer drs are skilled in eg forceps or ventouse these days, I was particularly nervous of such a delivery. |From my reading, anyone my age, with a first delivery (late 30s first time round) had a 25pc chance of such intervention. COnfirmed by cons.)

3. as I was old to be having a first baby, I already knew a lot of girls who had a family and, almost without exception, those who had gone privately - guaranteed epidural when they wanted it - or had had an organised section - as I did - had a "better birth outcome". THose who had tried a pv delivery on the NHS in London - and this is also an important distinction as provincial hospitals seem to be less stretched and more supportive - had had (a) the pain, (b) often stitches, then really disgusting infections © pelvic problems afterwards (d)often an emergency section thereafter. Furthermore, I didn't see the point of labouring for hours or even days and having a section at the end of it.

4. My view of medical personnel on the whole - and please note that I am, of course, generalising - is that the excellent nurses of a previous generation, who I would have trusted implicitly, have moved on to being Drs themselves in this generation. Draw your conclusions from that. I have faith that midwives "mean well" and will be ok 9 times out of 10 but in the remaining one case, I don't want to put my trust in the judgement of someone who just "means well". I want someone sharp, on the ball and experienced. THat package of skills is not, in my observation, held by every midwife.

5. I firmly believe that women should not suffer pain when giving birth. (If men gave birth, total block pain relief that allowed labour to progress would soon be a national priority.) THose who tell me proudly about "no pain relief" are pretty well stuck in another century, in my view, and contribute to the overall problem. Why should women suffer? It isn't right.

6. Anecdotally, too many friends have children with problems post natural births one way or another. Cf none post elective sections, (I think anyway).

7. My observation - and it is just that - is that the better informed medical people and female drs tend to have sections. Put it this way, of my female dr friends, none has given birth pv.

On the other hand, there were downsides to the section ranging from minimal to massive (guaranteed surgery for starters!):

1. Frightful dump of a ward with noise and buzz 24/7 - but it was only for 2 days and the proximity to theatre reassured me so it wasn't a problem for me.

2. Scar - I have a faded scar about 12cm across - I just looked! At its most vivid, I wasn't worried about it at all so, again, not an issue. (I only mention it as someone did on another thread as being an issue for her.)

3. Flabby tummy - didn't occur to me that this might happen and it didn't so that was fine.

4. Not being normal strength for weeks, not holding the baby etc - no-one I knew with a elective had these issues. Everyone was driving, moving normally and carrying the baby early on. The oft quoted six weeks did not seem to apply.

4. MRSA - looked at stats and was reassured

5. Spinal or epidural - read into in great detail why they were planning spinal. Met cons to discuss my main concern (are they trying to cut NHS costs by doing second grade spinals?!) Reassured that spinal was fine for vast majority of cases. Not concerned about problems siting it owing to experience of anaesthetist in theatre. (again better level of expertise with electve than overnight emergency, unfairly really as the emergencey case needs it more, arguably.)

6. Bp dropping in theatre as a direct result of spinals - happens to everyone. AS I have v low bp anyway, I was worried. Mentioned to cons anaesthetist who raised it with me on the day and pre-empted me. (no doubt sick of the point)

7. Cutting into the abdomen and having surgery - ok, the real point. I was reassured as, technically, it is a very easy operation. However, you wld have to be totally crazy to go looking for major surgery prima facie. For me, the likelihood of having other cuts, possibly an emergency section anyway and a panic to get out an oxygen starved baby overrode my desire to avoid surgery. THis way the risks were known adn could be covered in advance.

Happy to answer pms on this if anyone is contemplating it. I've tried to be balanced and hope anyone reading this can see that. Good luck to anyone having a lovely scrumptious baby. I wish I were having more!

[Keef]

Just to be clear, no i don't think that people should be given epidurals the second they ask for them. Of course there are medical reasons not to do it at times. However, I think it is plain wrong to try and deny a woman an epidural, when there is no reason not to do one, over than the fact you want to finish your shift, and it could slow thins down. Of course the NHS can't afford to give everyone an elective section, but equally'v they should give fbi request fair consideration. If a woman has had one child, and is too petrified to try for another because they can't face another difficult labour, they shouldn't just be labelled a softy by a medical professional, who has no concept of what the suffering was like for her.

[littleEDfamily]

Thanks, new mother. I have met plenty of doctors I wouldn't trust to pack my shopping. On your point about what might occur if men gave birth - I think midwifery (or would that be midhusbandry.. he he...) would be much better resourced, better paid and better regarded. Many things worth doing involve pain in one way or another (if you've ever run a marathon or had a brazilian you'll know what I mean). Not that I have had a brazilian, it's just the first thing I thought of...

Looking forward to more hilarity (and blubbering) tomorrow. Ruth Baldock- prepare to get high!!!