Theresa May accused live on TV of lying about numbers of police

[JohnL]

Can people stop accusing others of taking advantage of a tragedy - I am deeply offended as I would not accuse anyone else of that.

Once more and I will report to admin.

[JohnL]

The User only registered in March - doubt they are even local - and would they say that to me down the EDT

[Winder]

JohnL Wrote:

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> Winder Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > JohnL Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

>

> And stop the cheap shots from the Tory side - You

> just made me furious - How dare you there are many

> many ways to solve a problem.

I was just observing how the current laws restrict options and how "watching" them is totally useless as a preventative measure. It's like wearing a condom against a machine gun.

It just takes one to go out with a knife. Then multiply that by "X" Jihadis on any one night over a city. Big problem.

You say "there are many way to solve the problem". OK, what are your best ideas. Give us just five and I am sure this will tell us all we need to know.

Don't hold back, let it flow, be creative.

[jaywalker]

I do think we should be vigilant about governmental responses to terrorism. There are ratchet effects here that make it absolutely essential that there is full and calm debate (and NOT quasi-policy announcements in the immediate aftermath of these outrages). Also, politicians need to be MUCH better informed about the subjects they pontificate on (for example cyber-security).

If we truly mean that politics must be defended (against terror, but also against democracy as Bernard Crick put it so acutely) then politicians must ensure that debate has air in which to breathe.

[JohnL]

Accusing someone of using an attack that murdered people to further there own agenda is pretty nasty IMHO

[Winder]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> I don't think it means literally sitting outside

> their house/ following them 24hours every day.

Do you watch them when they go to Avis to rent a van? Which they then use on London Bridge.

I do not know where you're coming from.

[JoeLeg]

Winder Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Winder Wrote:

> I was just observing how the current laws

> restrict options and how "watching" them is

> totally useless as a preventative measure. It's

> like wearing a condom against a machine gun.

We live in a liberal democracy, and I think we all like that. Part of the price we pay for living here and not a police state is that bad people (from shoplifters to murdering jihadists) have more options and room for manoeuvre right up to the point where they go over the line. We practice innocent until proven guilty, and unless we want to start down a very dark path, we need to stick to it.

A lot goes on behind the scenes. This war (and it is a war) will be won through intelligence gathering and the dismantling of the support networks combined - hopefully - with soft power changing the minds of potential recruits here and abroad.

It will not be won by internment or restriction of movement based on flimsy evidence; knee-jerk reactions never work. It is MI5, MI6 and the police who need to be given the resources to fight them. We must not enact populist laws which will ultimately have little effect. We must properly fund those who know what they're doing, and then trust them to of the job they are there to do.

>

> It just takes one to go out with a knife. Then

> multiply that by "X" Jihadis on any one night over

> a city. Big problem.

Theoreticallt true, but I don't think they're that organised. I suspect the Manchester bomber operated alone, or with very little support. As soon as they try to work in that large a group they're gonna get caught.

>

> You say "there are many way to solve the problem".

> OK, what are your best ideas. Give us just five

> and I am sure this will tell us all we need to

> know.

>

> Don't hold back, let it flow, be creative.

Intelligence. Local knowledge. Winning the support of the Muslim community. Changing the minds of potential suicide bombers. Cutting of their access to explosives and guns, cutting off their money. Persuading the powers in the Middle East they we have common cause in this respect (yes, this means working with the Saudi's).

There are no magic buttons or secret methods. There is only well-worn paths of infiltrating these groups, finding out who is controlling them, destroying their ability to command and control. There's no point swatting small fry who might be up to something, when you can track who they take their orders from five thousand miles away and put a missle through their window. Let's be realistic here, a lot of them we can talk down. But not all of them. The trick, the real magic, is working out who's who.

Fund the intelligence services and the police properly, and let them do their job.

[Green Goose]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> with internment you only create guerrilla

> academies which these type of people would love to

> have. Some prisons have this facility for

> extremists already & it is very difficult to

> interrupt this effect. The only effective method

> is to remove them from the UK entirely - revoke

> their right to stay in the UK & deport them to

> wherever they came from - if they weren't born in

> the UK. Pass emergency laws & temporarily

> derogate from the Human Rights conventions for

> particular purposes. If they have were born in the

> UK have them commit to a contract & relocate them

> in some secure manner.

>

> Difficult problem but has to be approached with a

> robust solution - otherwise other Manchesters &

> London Bridges await us for the future.

I agree - robust action is needed urgently. We have been so very naive and tolerant. Love and Christian prayers for peace just do not cut any ice with Islamic terrorists. They are bullies.

These Jihadis are deranged terrorists and they work on fear and our inertia. They recognise only two things Allah and force. Therefor we have to use FORCEFULL measures against them.

Such action include:---

1. Declare a state of emergency, now.

2. Have an armed soldier accompany each policeman on patrol. Hence police numbers are effectively doubled.

3. Derogate the Human Rights legislation which the terrorists have exploited for the last 20years and which has made HR lawyers rich.

4. Stop all young muslim males of UK origin from returning to the UK after being away in a muslim country.

5. Stop all young muslim males from going overseas - unless they emigrate permanently.

6. Deport any who are on the watch list if they are of foreign origin.

7. Set up a detainment camp on Lundy Island for the others on the watch list. If they want to leave Lundy then let them go to a muslim country of their choice, after they agree to have a small crescent tatoo on each of their forearms.

I know it will incense the Libs and it will take ploitical fortitude. it is the only course of action which will avoid a disaster and it has to be done quickly otherwise we will have an ever-growing problem on our hands.

[JoeLeg]

Green Goose Wrote

> I agree - robust action is needed urgently. We

> have been so very naive and tolerant. Love and

> Christian prayers for peace just do not cut any

> ice with Islamic terrorists. They are bullies.

>

> These Jihadis are deranged terrorists and they

> work on fear and our inertia. They recognise

> only two things Allah and force. Therefor we have

> to use FORCEFULL measures against them.

>

> Such action include:---

>

> 1. Declare a state of emergency, now.

>

No. Sorry, but I disagree. These people are not that effective, and to do this would give them a legitimacy that have neither earned not deserve. The battle should not be bought onto our streets in such a manner.

> 2. Have an armed soldier accompany each policeman

> on patrol. Hence police numbers are effectively

> doubled.

>

The British Army simply doesn't have enough soldiers to do this, by a long chalk. It's been cut to the bone, can't recruit enough combat infantrymen, and is about to be cut further to something 65,000. We already have the option of Op Temperer, as was recently enacted after Manchester, as well as specific SF units on permanent alert. Deploying soldiers on the street in such numbers would only serve to disperse those soldiers, when they are better used in patrols or concentrated as specific points, as the French have found useful. I don't object to the use of the Army per se, but they are a limited resource and must be used carefully.

> 3. Derogate the Human Rights legislation which the

> terrorists have exploited for the last 20years and

> which has made HR lawyers rich.

A very complicated point. I agree it needs to be looked at, but knee-jerk reactions tend to have lasting results.

>

> 4. Stop all young muslim males of UK origin from

> returning to the UK after being away in a muslim

> country.

>

So you're going to tell a guy of Bagladeshi descent, born and raised in this country, that has visited Bangladesh for the first time in order to go to a cousins wedding that he can't come home? I think I understand the point you're trying to make, but you can't tell UK citizens they aren't allowed back in just because they visited Grandad. Even Trump didn't go that far.

> 5. Stop all young muslim males from going overseas

> - unless they emigrate permanently.

If you can't see how this will destroy any cooperation we currently get from the Muslim community then I'm amazed.

>

> 6. Deport any who are on the watch list if they

> are of foreign origin

This one I agree with.

>

> 7. Set up a detainment camp on Lundy Island for

> the others on the watch list. If they want to

> leave Lundy then let them go to a muslim country

> of their choice, after they agree to have a small

> crescent tatoo on each of their forearms.m

Now I'm wondering if you're just trolling. Tattoos on arms? Forceable deportation? Heard that before somewhere. That guy shot himself while the Soviets raped their way across his people.

>

> I know it will incense the Libs and it will take

> ploitical fortitude. it is the only course of

> action which will avoid a disaster and it has to

> be done quickly otherwise we will have an

> ever-growing problem on our hands.

It's not. As I said above the intelligence services need to be leading the fight on this. They work, if you'll pardon the hyperbole, in the shadows, and they do the nasty stuff so we all get to wake up the next day. No war has ever been won without intelligence, and when you fight someone who blends into the background it's your best weapon.

[rendelharris]

Stone me GG, I knew you were a hateful rightwinger but I didn't realise you're actually a Nazi. You want to tattoo people who haven't been found guilty of any crime, yes? Just as the Nazis did with Jews. You want to restrict freedom of travel for British citizens based on their religion, yes? Just as the Nazis did with Jews. You want internment without trial for suspects based on their religion, yes? Just as Nazis did with Jews. You want to abolish laws which guarantee our freedoms because of your perception of a threat from an "enemy within"? Just as the Nazis did with Jews.

Your opinions are utterly filthy.

Note to admin - happy to be banned if the above is beyond the pale, already seriously considering whether one should countenance breathing the same metaphorical air as Green Goose.

[Winder]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Winder Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > JohnL Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Winder Wrote:

>

> > I was just observing how the current laws

> > restrict options and how "watching" them is

> > totally useless as a preventative measure. It's

> > like wearing a condom against a machine gun.

>

> > OK, what are your best ideas. Give us just five

> > and I am sure this will tell us all we need to

> > know.

> >

> > Don't hold back, let it flow, be creative.

>

>

> Intelligence. Local knowledge. Winning the support

> of the Muslim community. Changing the minds of

> potential suicide bombers.

Good luck with that but I won't hold your breath waiting

> Cutting of their access to explosives and guns.

They don't need guns or explosives.

> cutting off their money.

The one last Saturday used his student loan! Didnt attend lectures.

> Persuading the powers in the Middle East they we

> have common cause in this respect (yes, this means

> working with the Saudi's).

Do me a favour, Saudi money is the source of much of their funds.

> There are no magic buttons or secret methods.

Agreed.

> There is only well-worn paths of infiltrating

> these groups, finding out who is controlling them,

> destroying their ability to command and control.

> There's no point swatting small fry who might be

> up to something, when you can track who they take

> their orders from five thousand miles away and put

> a missle through their window.

That's standard American approach and it has failed miserably.

> Let's be realistic here, a lot of them we can talk down.

Hasn't worked so far. These Jihadis are committed to the pointt of beliving suicide will get thenm 70 virgins.

> Fund the intelligence services and the police

> properly, and let them do their job.

Agreed. You use them to identify the potential players. Then you act!

OK, so you have come up with some ideas and I do not rate them one single bit.

Now ask yourslf- what is there to stop six of them, with knives crashing a hired van into a crowd say coming out of a big sporting event like Wimbledon?

[JoeLeg]

1. We have to continue to work on the soft aspect of it and try to cut off the flow of recruits.

2. I agree they don't need guns or explosives. They are far less effective without them, as has been seen. One fit in Manchester killed 22, three guys in London killed 7. Destroying their logistical train is a major factor in limits their effectiveness when they do mange to act. This is important.

3. I totally agree that Saudi money is a problem. If we can persuade the Saudi's to stop funding them then they run out of money.

4. The Americans have a number of approaches, and direct action is just one of them. My point there is that I have no problem with killing people who we are certain are directly responsible for funding, supporting or encouraging terrorism.

5. Again, stopping the recruitment is part of all this.

6. Yes, if you find the people who are going to do this, act. Totally agree.

There's nothing to stop your hypothetical scenario, or any other, if we haven't got properly funded and equipped police and security services. They are the guys who will get this done. You ask for ways to win the war - most wars are won by destroying an enemies logistical, financial and support network and using intelligence to find out what they want kept secret, until they are useless. Get inside their IDA loop, get inside their minds, comtinually destroy those at the top of the tree - it's how McCrystal destroyed Al-Qaeda in Iraq; intelligence-led direct action.

If we find evidence of a plot in the UK we deal with it. And meanwhile we continued to attack the structure of the organisation, everywhere and in every way. This is not a war of attrition, it is a war of intelligence.

[steveo]

Here's one:

Tags that emit a signal that can be picked up by anyone with the app.

You see or hear three signals heading your way and you head for the exit or find a Millwall supporter

[edhistory]

The draft of DoRA #3 will have been ready for activation since 1952.

[Lordship 516]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lordship 516 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > with internment you only create guerrilla

> > academies which these type of people would love

> to

> > have. Some prisons have this facility for

> > extremists already & it is very difficult to

> > interrupt this effect. The only effective

> method

> > is to remove them from the UK entirely - revoke

> > their right to stay in the UK & deport them to

> > wherever they came from - if they weren't born

> in

> > the UK. Pass emergency laws & temporarily

> > derogate from the Human Rights conventions for

> > particular purposes. If they have were born in

> the

> > UK have them commit to a contract & relocate

> them

> > in some secure manner.

> >

> > Difficult problem but has to be approached with

> a

> > robust solution - otherwise other Manchesters &

> > London Bridges await us for the future.

>

> I agree - robust action is needed urgently. We

> have been so very naive and tolerant. Love and

> Christian prayers for peace just do not cut any

> ice with Islamic terrorists. They are bullies.

>

> These Jihadis are deranged terrorists and they

> work on fear and our inertia. They recognise

> only two things Allah and force. Therefor we have

> to use FORCEFULL measures against them.

>

> Such action include:---

>

> 1. Declare a state of emergency, now.

>

> 2. Have an armed soldier accompany each policeman

> on patrol. Hence police numbers are effectively

> doubled.

>

> 3. Derogate the Human Rights legislation which the

> terrorists have exploited for the last 20years and

> which has made HR lawyers rich.

>

> 4. Stop all young muslim males of UK origin from

> returning to the UK after being away in a muslim

> country.

>

> 5. Stop all young muslim males from going overseas

> - unless they emigrate permanently.

>

> 6. Deport any who are on the watch list if they

> are of foreign origin.

>

> 7. Set up a detainment camp on Lundy Island for

> the others on the watch list. If they want to

> leave Lundy then let them go to a muslim country

> of their choice, after they agree to have a small

> crescent tatoo on each of their forearms.

>

> I know it will incense the Libs and it will take

> ploitical fortitude. it is the only course of

> action which will avoid a disaster and it has to

> be done quickly otherwise we will have an

> ever-growing problem on our hands.

GG

You responded to my post with such an awful litany of abhorrent suggestions that I have to disassociate myself from any of the suggestions that you have put forward.

My post was as mainly thinking out loud about the conundrum that we are faced with in a democracy - freedom to go about our independent life & freedom from interference from others, whether that be government or private people.

Those who can conform to reasonable norms of behaviour & civility have a right to this freedom; those who fall outside these reasonable norms and engage in anti-social behaviour that impacts others so aggressively that it disallows their reasonable enjoyment of freedoms that have been so hard fought for over hundreds of years.

I fully believe that the government would be within their rights [on behalf of us all] to exclude people of whatever foreign origin if they actually commit a crime against any person including hate crimes. How to treat people who are UK/Euro citizens is another matter. In the short term some form of control may be necessary - TPIMS or whatever but education/integration must form a great part of this as must acceptance/inclusion of all origins/religions/beliefs on an equal footing. A fair society with an enlightened foreign policy & a healthy economy with a good health service, decent housing & employment opportunities for all would play a huge part in this agenda of fostering a peaceful society.

instead of these hate mongers converting us, we must seek to convert them to a way of peace. Hating in return will not achieve that.

[JohnL]

.

[JohnL]

We need Police on the beat who stop off at places including the local mosques - but this forum has become nasty and aggressive tonight. So I'm out.

The below is patronizing and obnoxious - we are not children on this forum

"Now ask yourslf- what is there to stop six of them, with knives crashing a hired van into a crowd say coming out of a big sporting event like Wimbledon?"

[Lordship 516]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Daddys lecturing again - we all share the same

> pubs and we have people like this lecturing us.

Sorry - I thought that I might be entitled to express my opinion & beliefs as well as the freedom to express my abhorrence at the views of others.

I shouldn't wish to be your daddy..!

[JohnL]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Daddys lecturing again - we all share the same

> > pubs and we have people like this lecturing us.

>

> Sorry - I thought that I might be entitled to

> express my opinion & beliefs as well as the

> freedom to express my abhorrence at the views of

> others.

>

> I shouldn't wish to be your daddy..!

I'm talking to the guy who said I was using the deaths of 7 people to get a pointy across

[Borky]

I find that humanity is to blame.Lets put those nuclear weapons to good use and wipe ourselves off the face of the earth. it may stop some of the hyperbolic toss on this thread as a positive

[uncleglen]

Someone told me that in the library at Manchester University it is possible to call up a video of an IS killing a westerner on a computer and view it but if you try and view pornography you cannot.

[rendelharris]

It never ceases to amaze what people have told you uncle - do you ever stop to think that maybe they're telling you complete bollocks?

[malumbu]

Whem they built the new library at Birmingham University they forgot to take into account the weight of the books so the foundations were not strong enough. The newly opened Olympic sized swimming pool, is not Olympic sized as they forgot to take into account the thickness of the tile lining. Guess where I have been today. I took time to thanks the youngsters for voting. Not the civil engineers though.