The Big Lie

[Inbound]

Conservatives repeatedly report that they have taken x-amount of people out of the tax bracket by raising the threshold of where tax starts, and this makes them better off.

What is never mentioned that anybody who was on this level of income would almost certainly be receiving Tax credits, these being means tested will be reduced pound for pound because of the rise in income.

Net result= HRMC pays less benefit, the recipient is no better off.

[uncleglen]

Well then, perhaps the recipient will have an incentive to work more hours since there are complaints from some quarters that people only want to work a certain number of hours as they can top up their income with tax credits.

People in general are receiving more of their own income as the threshold has risen....why should I work to support other people who choose to skive

[Inbound]

Your 1st point is valid... but My point was not the policy but the heavily promoted illusion of being better off. Yes, any overtime or raise would now be a real rise, but your base income has to be above the benefit threshold to actually have more money in your pocket

Your second point is offensive, would a toilet cleaner swabbing up turds for the minimum wage be one of these skivers?

[TheCat]

Similar to the big lie from labour that only the top 5percent will be affected by their tax grab?

Umm.....Corporation tax, land value tax, tax on pvt health insurance premiums, vat on pvt school fees.....

Also, when they don't make enough to fund their promises. Will the top 5 % become the top 25%?

[Inbound]

I admit labours promises seem barely credible at 1st glance, all of the "victims" of these taxes are they not in the best position to carry any illusionary "burden"? Labour would have to be prudent to see these aspirations as a long term goal.

By raising the income of the less well paid you effectively inject more money into the economy as these people are the most likely to spend it?

What goes around comes around

[Earl Aelfheah]

Top 5% in terms of income means those bringing in over 70K. I just point this out because no one ever thinks they're 'well off', but actually if you're being paid that amount or more, objectively, you really are. Personally I think people should pay their taxes and be proud to contribute. I know for a fact that I'm not anymore deserving than the single mum working shifts for minimum wage. People should recognise their good fortune to have been born in a certain time and place and to have got some lucky breaks.

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> Well then, perhaps the recipient will have an

> incentive to work more hours since there are

> complaints from some quarters that people only

> want to work a certain number of hours as they can

> top up their income with tax credits.

> People in general are receiving more of their own

> income as the threshold has risen....why should I

> work to support other people who choose to skive

A single parent working forty hours a week for minimum wage will receive tax credits, presumably they should buck up and work more hours?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Uncleglen perfectly encompasses the Conservative mindset... 'The money I have, I worked hard for. Therefore anyone with less can't be working hard enough'. It's faulty logic and it's egocentric.

[Lordship 516]

Conservatives are constantly quoting that we need the businesses & the wealthy as job creators which is a total bunch of B@##ocks.

The corollary is also true - the corporations & the wealthy need us as their consumers & couldn't operate their businesses without well trained, well educated workers at all levels. Without us, the likes of Branson might as well retire permanently to Necker & grow some vegetable & raise chickens.

Wealth is mainly the produce of the land, labour & technology of all society.

Land would have little or no value without the consumption of the produce therefrom & produce [both real & virtual] would have no value without consumption.

The wealthy corporations & individuals need us as much & possibly more than we need them. Of course risk & enterprise need to be rewarded in order to provide incentive but there needs to be a balance in the distribution of the annual proceeds of economic activity so a country can prosper & its people live with dignity & security.

This idea is anathema to the Toryboy concept of society - they want, even need an underclass to propagate their ideal of living & will fight dirty to achieve that. They have always promoted the concept of the upper class that have had more political power than those of lower classes due to their abundance of resources and influence & they intend to keep it that way - this is their core driver.

[dbboy]

We need immigrants, as they do jobs the native workers do not want to do, like pick fruit and veg in the fields, drive buses and trains, sweep the streets, empty the bins, nurse the sick in hospitals etc. Without these people doing the jobs they do, parts of this country would quickly grind to a halt.

[Lordship 516]

dbboy Wrote:

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> We need immigrants, as they do jobs the native

> workers do not want to do, like pick fruit and veg

> in the fields, drive buses and trains, sweep the

> streets, empty the bins, nurse the sick in

> hospitals etc. Without these people doing the jobs

> they do, parts of this country would quickly grind

> to a halt.

...but, do we...? Perhaps the gap in labour availability ought to be filled in various other ways. More education & training, better wages for nurses & other roles so as to attract more to the jobs; a better minimum living wage coupled with insistence that long term unemployed either take gainful work or enter a productive training program.

Other countries appear to be able to manage so why not the UK..?

Depending on people who have no opportunity other than take a degraded wage is tantamount to condoning quasi-slavery wages, forcing the weakest in society from wherever into taking work at a level that cannot sustain their living at a decent level. Yes, there are those who appear grateful for that kind of work but this is a reflection of an unjust & unethical society that condones & maintains such practices. Wage exploitation is a form of corruption and though free from chattel slavery gives no security of a living wage, even temporarily. A chattel slave had more security as the master had a proprietary interest in maintaining the slaves welfare.

Paying below the living wage is not much different than the slavers of old..!

[TheCat]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Uncleglen perfectly encompasses the Conservative

> mindset... 'The money I have, I worked hard for.

> Therefore anyone with less can't be working hard

> enough'. It's faulty logic and it's egocentric.

I don't disagree with this as a view of some on the right. But equally,you get the people with less money who have the mindset of 'I work hard, not like those toffs in their ivory towers, who breeze through life'. I would say both of those views are extreme, and largely incorrect..

[JohnL]

Well the Student who said to Corbyn at BBC interviews that he needed Zero Hour contracts to feed himself.

He turned out to be a posh nob - really posh and very rich.

[Green Goose]

dbboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We need immigrants, as they do jobs the native

> workers do not want to do, like pick fruit and veg

> in the fields, drive buses and trains, sweep the

> streets, empty the bins, nurse the sick in

> hospitals etc. Without these people doing the jobs

> they do, parts of this country would quickly grind

> to a halt.

Who did these jobs before the willing foreign workers arrived?

[Green Goose]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Conservatives are constantly quoting that we need

> the businesses & the wealthy as job creators which

> is a total bunch of B@##ocks.

>

> The corollary is also true - the corporations &

> the wealthy need us as their consumers & couldn't

> operate their businesses without well trained,

> well educated workers at all levels. Without us,

> the likes of Branson might as well retire

> permanently to Necker & grow some vegetable &

> raise chickens.

>

> Wealth is mainly the produce of the land, labour &

> technology of all society.

>

> Land would have little or no value without the

> consumption of the produce therefrom & produce

> would have no value without consumption.

>

> The wealthy corporations & individuals need us as

> much & possibly more than we need them. Of course

> risk & enterprise need to be rewarded in order to

> provide incentive but there needs to be a balance

> in the distribution of the annual proceeds of

> economic activity so a country can prosper & its

> people live with dignity & security.

>

> This idea is anathema to the Toryboy concept of

> society - they want, even need an underclass to

> propagate their ideal of living & will fight dirty

> to achieve that. They have always promoted the

> concept of the upper class that have had more

> political power than those of lower classes due to

> their abundance of resources and influence & they

> intend to keep it that way - this is their core

> driver.

This is just a warped and simplistic interpretation of the realities of the meritocray we live in. It is not just a meritocracy in the UK alone. It is worldwide and the UK has to compete on a worldwide basis with other countries.

Take a look at the USA.It is totally classless and those that have ability coupled to the willingness to work, will succeed. Look at Singapore - no land, no resources but highly successful.

You are just digging up the class divide that ceased to exist years ago - in the same way that you are regugitating the politics of envy.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Wow, that is an incredibly naive post.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Lovely Freudian slip from Duncan Smith:

[Green Goose]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Wow, that is an incredibly naive post.

OK, elucidate! Counter the logic. I'd love to hear it.

[rendelharris]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Wow, that is an incredibly naive post.

>

> OK, elucidate! Counter the logic. I'd love to hear

> it.

Vague assertions of blatantly dubious propositions (GB is a complete meritocracy, the USA is totally classless) without any supporting evidence do not constitute logic.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I question the idea that we live in a meritocracy where only the brightest and most hard working succeed (and by implication that the poor are somehow mentally or morally deficient and / or lazy and fecklessness). Also the US is classless? Hmmm. Yes, I think it's fair to say that this is a naive worldview.

[Green Goose]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I question the idea that we live in a meritocracy

> where only the brightest and most hard working

> succeed (and by implication that the poor are

> somehow mentally or morally deficient and / or

> lazy and fecklessness). Also the US is classless?

> Hmmm. Yes, I think it's fair to say that this is a

> naive worldview.

Time out please, I'm watching Champions League final!

[JoeLeg]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> dbboy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > We need immigrants, as they do jobs the native

> > workers do not want to do, like pick fruit and

> veg

> > in the fields, drive buses and trains, sweep

> the

> > streets, empty the bins, nurse the sick in

> > hospitals etc. Without these people doing the

> jobs

> > they do, parts of this country would quickly

> grind

> > to a halt.

>

> Who did these jobs before the willing foreign

> workers arrived?

These jobs have been done by immigrants for many years, and unfortunately now young British workers do not want to do them. I've said it before and I'll say it again - for Brexit to succeed there needs to be s cultural shift in the mentality of under-25's; they need of stop thinking that at ?30K entry level position will magically materialise in their preferred field.

Menial jobs will always need doing. If people don't want immigrants to do them then they need to be willing to do them themselves. If this pushes up wages too them fantastic. But the jobs still need doing.

(And the idea that the USA is a classless society? Come on, you don't really believe that, do you?)

[Seabag]

The unworking class like immigration

It gives them a sense of superiority

[Green Goose]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I question the idea that we live in a meritocracy

> where only the brightest and most hard working

> succeed (and by implication that the poor are

> somehow mentally or morally deficient and / or

> lazy and fecklessness). Also the US is classless?

> Hmmm. Yes, I think it's fair to say that this is a

> naive worldview.

You naturally will infer whatever you want from my use of the word meritocracy. I didn?t mention laziness of fecklessness ? you did; but certainly these characteristics aren?t going to do any one any good unless the lives under an extremely benevolent system in a country that can afford - that is it without having to borrow to fund the budget deficit.

In the UK the class barriers started to disintegrate with WW1 and continued to steadily disappear in subsequent decades. So come the 1980?s and after the Big Bang, jobs in the City (the last bastion of class) for example were opened up to bright, numerate traders irrespective of their backgrounds. In the past virtually all such jobs in the City had been allocated by virtue of ?connections? and the old school tie.

Certainly today, anyone with a STEM degree can get a well paid job in any sector without having to break down any class barriers.

It is useful not to confuse ?class? with ?wealth? and assume they are the linked. Also please do not confuse academic attainment with class. The legacy of the class barriers of the past are still imprinted in the Socialist psyche and exaggerated and exploited by all those of a left-wing disposition.

As an illustration, in the UK, when someone drives past in a flashy new gold coloured Bently convertible, some will say ?there goes a filthy, exploitative, capitalist b*st*rd?. Whereas in the USA, when the flashy pink Cadillac convertible rolls by, many will say ?my, he?s done well, good on him, he?s living the American dream. One day I?m gonna have a car just like him?.

I?ve been to the States several times and worked with Americans and I can assure you from first hand experience there is no class barriers there. They take you as they find you. They are characterised by their positive, can-do attitude. In many ways, this is attitude is shared with the Australians who are well known for referring to us a whinging Poms. Who is it that are the whingers? The grafters or your feckless.

[JoeLeg]

while there is no social or ethical barrier to being successful in the USA, and hard work is generally rewarded, it comes at quite the price over there. One can have a personal opinion over whether certain aspects of Americam society are worth it, but I would still argue with the idea that it's a classless society.

They may not have 'class' in the same way the UK used to (and still does to a certain extent, though much diminished in influence since a hundred years ago), but there are definite strata in their world which hold inherent advantages due to nothing more than being born who they are. This holds true in both directions, as the slums of Baltimore and Detroit, for example, would testify.

I would suggest that America is nation still trying to work out who they are - it's an incredibly diverse and vibrant society which for all its beauty still has terrible racial issues, for example. I have family there, I love visiting, I hope my children like the place as much as I do, but it is also fractured, and has developed its own classes.

Australia is similar in outlook, I would say, and though I'm only familiar with Melbourne and its surroundings I find Oz to be the same in some ways.

They certainly do regard us as moaners. I would say that compared to them, they're right. Maybe if more people in this country displayed the same attitude towards work, we wouldn't be asking ourselves who will do the jobs if we cut immigration. I'm not just trying to score a cheap point; it's a belief I genuinely hold - I wish we could get more people being positive about the benefits of being on work, seeing not just what the job is, but what it can lead to later in life. The culture of instant gratification has done terrible things to us.