Man stabbed to death near East Dulwich station

[Mac]

Perhaps a larger cross section of SE22 residents could be welcomed on to the forum?

EDF's influence spreads by word-of-mouth, but only within some social circles. I guess everyone in the postcode should get a chance to take it or leave it..

Some edf URL stickers on bus stops?

The incident couldn't have happened more locally, there was an entire clubhouse full of kids attending, yet there have been no posts (apart from the venue owner) from anyone who remotely knows any of the youth or parents involved. That's probably good from the pov of the police investigation, but suggests there are some big holes in the social network.

[buggie]

Am so sad to see more gun/knife crime and the death of another young lad.

There is support available locally for teenagers - think one of the big problems is getting those who need it to engage with it... you can lead a teenager to help but can't make them take it.

Kings ED have been the first in the country to have adolescent youth workers who make contact with all teenagers who come in following assaults/other injuries suggestive of needing support, but think there is often a problem in that those who it seems would need the most support are often least likely to take it - think self-esteem/self-worth often have a bearing on this and do have to agree that parental support is often much needed and much lacking, sometimes albeit due to them not knowing how to help rather than not wanting to.

[pk]

Ridgley Wrote:

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> agree with DJKQ yes we do, pk you need get out

> more there is generation of young people that

> would like to punch your lights out if you stare

> at them to long or you can be travelling on a bus

> or train you accidentally step on there toes they

> want kill you just look at the town centres on a

> Friday night.

Definition

? [C + singular or plural verb] all the people of about the same age within a society or within a particular family

it's my view that a very small proportion of people of the same age would e.g. punch my lights out, i'd say that this is supported by the fact that i've travelled on many buses and stepped on many toes in my life without having my lights punched out

perhaps you need to get your dictionary out more?

[louisiana]

hislordshiplane Wrote:

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> louisiana Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Cassius Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > The good thing here is that they seem to only

> > > shoot each other.

> > >

> > > This is probably one of the worst things I

> have

> > > read on this forum for a long time. What a

> > > disgusting sentiment.

> >

> > Indeed. Looks like the individual concerned has

> > joined the forum just to post his comments

> about

> > this thread.

>

>

> Louisiana, indded as I suspect you are in many

> cases your wrong. I moveed to ED 7 years ago and

> joined the forum about 4 years ago. I havee

> commented on eveything from traffic to opening

> times of the library. Nice assumption though.

You have 8 postings listed on EDF since you joined. Eight.

Five of those eight are currently displayed (the others perhaps have been deleted by you or someone else?).

*All* those five posts are on this thread, which I started on Saturday morning.

So I cannot see any posts you have made on any other subject.

(Compare and contrast: many other posters here have hundreds or thousands of postings on hundreds of subjects over years.)

[louisiana]

hislordshiplane Wrote:

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> C'mon we

> all know there is a problem with violence in our

> community,

You've already said you don't live here. (You say you live in Sevenoaks, which is not in London.) In what way is this your community?

Corrected for spelling

[pk]

Tarot Wrote:

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> It appears the young black youth have no interest

> in life, other than being a gang member who

> carries weapons,and wants to emulate Los Angeles

> Ganksters.

>

> Some people may say,its racist,

you're right - it's racist and intentionally so i'd suggest

[Pearson]

In view of the direction this conversation's been going,

this appeared interesting, especially the timing:

Gang injunctions

[Amanda1979]

Whether the victims were innocent bystanders or defending their family/friends or even the instigators of the argument, they didn't deserve to die.

I say we as there were multiple victims and it is more luck than judgement that one is still alive.

We can argue about who is to blame all we want but at the end of the day the fault lays at the feet of those who used the knife/gun. They had a choice and they chose to kill.

Yes this kind of thing is getting worse and yes it does need to be tackled but turning on each other is not helping anyone.

As someone who grew up attending youth groups such as girl guides and then venture scouts and who helped out with the younger groups, I do believe that these help people have a positive outlet for their energies and it can be channelled creatively. The problem these days is not many people have time to dedicate to running these groups. I would at this stage like to praise the work anyone working with kids does, it can make a huge difference.

Whether we like it or not we have a gang culture in most big cities in the UK and until the government helps those who want to help young people then I don't think we are going to get very far.

At the end of the day, we as human beings have a choice in everything we do and the way we do it. All we as individuals can do is use our choices wisely and hope to always be a positive influence on others.

My condolences to the families affected.

[DJKillaQueen]

The problem these days is not many people have time to dedicate to running these groups.

Part of the reason is the amount of red tape, legislation and legal requirements for anyone wnating to get involved with young people. It's daunting and off putting.

[richfish]

It is a terribly sad incident and I too would like to send my condolences to the families affected.

We mustn't demonise young people though as I believe that only perpetuates the problem and reinforces their separation from the accepted social norms of the community. There are some young people who are violent, intolerant and unable to express themselves. The blade of the knife or the barrel of a gun becomes their means of expression and an ability to exert some control in an otherwise chaotic lifestyle. Often this is a product of poverty and learned behaviour in the family - the abused becomes the abuser syndrome. Evidence tells us that many of these young people are psychologically damaged. These features have been a part of urban life for centuries, this is not a lost generation and it is not an endemic problem although the moral authority of our profit hungry media industry would like to portray that it is. There are however the majority of young people. many many polite, caring, expressive young people who are living in South East London as elsewhere trying to do their bit. Don?t let event induced hysteria make us forget that. As others have said practical resources and support can go a long way. It takes trust to be able to do that though and that can take a very long and sustained time to achieve. The short termism that blights our over politicised welfare provision seems unable to commit to doing that though.

[DJKillaQueen]

I have to disagree. The levels of truancy and anti-social behaviour are at a high since records began. We have an increasing level of school leavers unable to read and write properly. And the numbers of teenagers being stabbed to death is also at an increasing high. Such things were unheard of when I was a child or were extremely rare (and knives have always been easy yo get hold of).

Yes the majority of young people are unaffected and doing well etc, but far too many are now caught up in the culture of violence. To pretend it isn't something that is getting worse is just nonsense. And yes we should be alarmed, if even a single person is murdered, let alone three young people in the capital already this year.

[student]

As an 18 year old who lives almost opposite where this happened (although neither me nor any of my famiy were there at the time) I wold just like to point out that the way some people on this thread have behaved is absolutely pathetic. I am genuinely shocked that some people have started ridiculous little squabbles when what this thread should be about is discussing a tragic event and it seems many people seem to have forgotten that. I would also just like to point out that gang rivlaries and stabbings etc happen everywhere, East Dulwich is an amazing place but it cannot be romanticised.

Also, I'm not sure that all makes sense libraries do drive you crazy

[Keef]

It makes good sense student.

[victoriapeckham]

I am really baffled why, if there was a huge fight inside the club, the staff kicked out dozens of angry, violent fighting kids into the street, without first calling the police to make sure they cleared the area. Perhaps someone from the Hamlet Football Club could explain.

[Earl Aelfheah]

What is going on? Seriously,does anyone have any insight into what is turning 13 year olds into savage murders? This is just inconceivable. Condolences to the family. Let's hope that the animals responsible are caught.

[Ann]

Also it's a little baffling that rival gangs would have been at the same party. To host a party inviting rival gangs is pretty inconceivable and I'm guessing there was an appropriate level of security at least at entry level.

There's an awful lot here that is worrying on so many levels. Fourteen year old shot. Perpetrator potentially 13? An 18 year old dead having been to an organised event? Not a typically random street killing I would have thought.

[nubian]

I lived in Dulwich for most of my life and the idea that stabbings, etc are just a recent occurence is rediculous. I remember not being able to walk from the bus stop in Lordship Lane by me self, in case I was chased by the NF or Teddy boys, young people and old (including my father) walked with a knife 'just in case' and just because Southwark Council have gentrified Dulwich, along with many other London Boroughs, in the name of social engineering, opps regeneration, does not mean that if you 'pack 'em all' into the East Dulwich Estate, where they can be neither seen or heard, the problem dissappears.

I truly believe the police and their policies are not the cause but perpetuate the problem. Bak in the day they would have acted now, unless someone gets murdered or severely injured, they have no interest. I am the black mother of a mixed raced child who has been robbed, numerous times, by knifepoint, had his nose broken by a club bouncer and been robbed and beaten with a hammer by a gang of youths and to date, NOT ONE positive police response. In the latter case, they attended the scene, took my child in an ambulance and left, without so much as filing a report. You can complain but unless you have the time to manuourve the complexities of the IPCC - there is little point. Faced with this and constantly being stopped in your car by the same people who apparently lack resources to deal with the crimes perpertrated against you - how would you feel? A little bit frustrated perhaps, can't beat them join 'em!?

In my view, until the police start dealing with what they consider as petty crimes more effectively, situations will escalate. To this end, I'd be very surprised if any of the perpetrator of this, or any other shooting or stabbing victim, are unknown to the police. God rest Daniel in peace and peace to his parents, as quite frankly, they could be any of us. I fear, however, that the Coalition government's cuts to policing, which incidentally has seen an 8% increase in this type of incident in the past year, is not the way forward. As for, 'let's reduce the number of prison spaces'! Perhaps this is another social engineering project that we will all feel the impact of in a few years time - no education or job prospects, no crime detterent - ummm - I wonder what will happen.

[louisiana]

Nubian, you're right about this not being new, though it's relatively recently that such young people have become both victims and perpetrators of this kind of violence to this extent.

And yes, this kind of thing has happened in the area before. A couple of years ago, I by chance came across David Fergus (later aka Davidstar Royal King) at a road crossing in Crystal Palace. I then spent 30 minutes talking with him (or rather listening to him) but found it difficult to take my eyes from his face and head. In 1994 he was shot in the back of the head at point-blank range with a sawn-off shotgun as he came out of a disco at the youth club on Albrighton Road, only a few hundred feet from Dulwich Hamlet FC. He was 23 and already had a promising career as a boxer. Half his head is a mess, he lost an eye, and he walks slowly and with difficulty, but it's amazing he came out of that alive. Today David spends his life talking to young people about the dangers of gangs and weapons which is why he was in CP that day. He's an amazing guy. The teenager responsible for shooting him was never caught.

[ressia]

i cant believe how many irrelevant comments are being made on this page...

THIS YOUNG MAN WAS SOMEBODYS SON, A BROTHER, A FRIEND AND NOW ANOTHER STATISTIC.

Do you really believe this situation is going to get better unless the goverment has a long hard think about the cuts it is about to make??

yeah great idea Tories, lets remove the playgrounds, lets take away after school clubs, sports activities, lets slash funding from anyone and everyone thats trying to help young people engage and enjoy a normal way of life, lets just stop re-producing right now because slowly slowly WE are killing our own future.

We think its bad now? Give it another 5 years and the results will be horrific.

The Victim...

You may think that because your child is tucked up safely in bed, because your child has a private education and can play the piano it does NOT for one second mean your child is safe... At least 35% of the chldren stabbed/shot in the last few years have been innocent victims in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The Offender...

You may think that the young offenders behaviour is completely in-excusable and i agree, there is absolutley no reason to take anothers life BUT these young people feel they have reason and maybe if i was from a broken, poverty stricken home where sexual abuse and violence was an EVERY-DAY occurance, having to steal in order to eat, no one believing in you, No Hope, then im sure i would feel like a had reason... And 75% of these young offenders do suffer on a daily basis, they're not taught Right from Wrong like we were as children, they're set boundries like we are, they feel they dont stand a chance and if we dont reach out soon our OWN children will NOT stand a chance.

[zeban]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/31/shooting-fatal-stabbing-london

[Dulwichman01]

Condolences to the families of the victims. Does this mean that hamlets is shut for good? I went there today and it was not open.

[James Barber]

The young man who died Daniel Graham lived on Fellbrigg Road. I suspect many people locally will have known him.

I would hope that further discussions and theorising would be more appropriate in the Drawing Room area of EDF.

This was issued by the Met Police late yesterday:

"

Police continue to appeal for witnesses and information after a murder

in East Dulwich.

Police were called at approx. 00:10hrs on Saturday 29 January following

reports of an assault close to East Dulwich rail station.

Daniel Graham, 18 (27.5.92) of Fellbrigg Road SE22, was taken by ambulance to a south London hospital where he was pronounced dead at approx. 02:15hrs.

Police believe that Daniel had attended a party at Dulwich Hamlet

football club where an altercation between a group of youths began. As a result he left the party and ran down Dog Kennel Hill SE22 before boarding a stationary Route 176 bus.

It is believed that he was followed onto the bus, so he got off. As he did so he was attacked by up to six youths on the pavement in full view of the passengers and pedestrians on the street. He managed to get back on the bus whereupon passengers called for an ambulance.

A post-mortem gave cause of death as stab wounds.

An incident room has opened under DCI Dave Manning (HSSC), and detectives are urging anyone who may have witnessed the attack to come forward.

At approx. 00:20hrs on Saturday 29 January, police were called to a south London hospital to reports of a 14 year old boy who had been shot in the leg. He victim remains in hospital in a stable condition.

It is believed this shooting was also connected to the party and police are also appealing for anyone with information on the incident to come forward.

DCI Manning said: "East Dulwich is a busy area on a Friday night and I am sure that many people witnessed both incidents. I need to hear from any of the passengers on the 176 bus or any pedestrians who were in the vicinity."

Anyone with information is asked to contact the incident room on 020 8721 4054; or to remain anonymous call Crimestoppers 0800 555 111.

+ On 31 January a 13 year old boy [A] was arrested on suspicion of attempted murder re. the shooting, and was taken to a south London police station. He has now been bailed to return in late-March pending further inquiries

"

[Vik]

James Barber Wrote:

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> The young man who died Daniel Graham lived on

> Fellbrigg Road. I suspect many people locally will

> have known him.

> I would hope that further discussions and

> theorising would be more appropriate in the

> Drawing Room area of EDF.

>

Hear hear.

Absolutely tragic, no-one has the right to take a life. Condolences to Daniels family.

[david_carnell]

Please can I politely ask that forum members respect those affected by this tragic death and not idly theorise about events that took place.

If you have any information it should be given to the police and not discussed on here.

I'd rather not have to lock down a thread but complaints have been made regarding insensitvity, racism and tastelessness. Please keep this in mind when posting.

Thank you.

Moderating Team.

[thebestnameshavegone]

Let them dig their own giant racist hole, it's hilarious.