Man stabbed to death near East Dulwich station

[DJKillaQueen]

Indeed the groups and individuals caught up in this kind of crime are often known to each other and worse still often refuse to co-operate with Police (and a gang can just be a group of friends after all). The recent flier on a Peckham Estate after a shooting is a perfect example of what the Police (who have no other desire than to get voilent thugs off our streets whatever their age) are up against.

That is the brutal honest truth.

Is there anything the rest of us can do to affect that self destructive culture? That is the big question.

I certainly think there is something we can do to support parents that (as someone pointed out earlier) find themselves unable to cope with children that are going down the wrong path. I also think that there are things that can be done on a community level to engage with young people before they get involved with that kind of culture. As for the rest I don't know. What seems to work for one individual (through things like existing mentoring teams) doesn't work for others.

[hislordshiplane]

So still no solutions though much emphasis on what term to use. Amazing guys. still no doubt (and sadly) it will only be a matter of time before it happens again.

Yes agree it violence can afect those caught in crossfire etc but the vast majority is in certain sections of our community namely gangs.

Maybe keef the google guy can search the stats on that!!!!

[DJKillaQueen]

Errr I think I suggested that things can be done on the prevention front.....but a cure is not so clear cut.

[Ridgley]

I agree DJKQ with you 100 percent, as for co-operating with the police I had a harrowing experience 1998 I witness a murder I just got up for a glass of water and heard arguing out side my window it was four black youths one of the boys hit and killed the other boy with a bottle that severed an artery in his neck he bleed to death the boy that was killed left a five year old daughter.

The police was crawling over the area I came forward as I felt this someone son and if that was my child I would hope someone will do the same the case went to the Old Bailey the prosecutor tore strips into me saying I did not see what I said I saw I stuck to my guns and the other witness confirmed my story my friends at that time was surprised what I did but I felt this was the right think to do the boy who murdered the other boy received 10 years the others that was there received 8 years for conspiracy.

[hislordshiplane]

Sorry Queenie did not get your post before I sent mine.

How about this: Using information from Social services, and teachers (e.g.trunacy numbers) to identify those that are at risk! Giving them support road maps that help them respect themselves, each other - reward them for when they hit benchmarks of effort e.g tax relief, subsidised housing. Continued supprt to the age of 21.

However, for those that are put on the support road and fail to adhere to it, or start to commit serious crime no more excuses. Named and shamed in local newspapers, benefit entitlements stopped, harder sentencing, harder prison environment - working in the community to pay it back.

[Keef]

I'm not really in to searching for stats on Google, there are others on here who are better at that. I just suspected your initial point was incorrect, so I typed in "knife crime in Wimbledon" followed by "knife crime in chelsea". It wasn't particularly difficult. What would your solutions be then hislordshiplane?

[Keef]

Cross posted with your solution suggestions.

[Penguin68]

Although the government seems to want to criminalise gang membership (and so being a member of a gang alone will qualify you for 'guilt') in fact someone who is injured or killed and is also a gang member is still a victim, and, as regards the particular incident very possibly an innocent victim, in that they did not start or contribute to it - unless you subscribe to guilt by association - and then it's just a matter of how wide you want to draw that association - in the middle part of the last century some people drew assocations pretty wide so as to ascribe guilt and absolve themselves of crimes against the innocent.

Young people go about in groups, sometimes those groups are marked by special clothing or insignia (I remember the Bay City Rollers and what their fans looked like) - if someone wearing one insignia (or linked to one group) injures or murders someone wearing a rival insignia (or linked to a rival group) this does not make the victim necessarily any less innocent than a baby in a pram killed by a random shot. To suggest that either of the boys injured or murdered over the weekend was in some way complict in the attacks on them - until we know very clearly the circumstances, is frankly awful.

[DJKillaQueen]

The judicial system does have a lot to answer for. Similarly I was the only witness in a domestic abuse case and even as the accused was being arrested and admitted he'd assaulted the victim....he was still found not guilty. Yet another case where three young woman assaulted a neighbour of mine, because she had had a one night stand with one of their ex boyfriends (I intervened to stop the assualt) didn't go to court because they all pleaded guilty (advised to do so by their lawyers, based on my statement being that of a reliable witness) and were given suspended sentences.

The point is that we have a generation of young men and women who think voilence is perfectly acceptable behaviour for the most insignificnt of reasons. THAT is a real cultural problem that we have to find a way to do something about.

[DJKillaQueen]

> How about this: Using information from Social services, and teachers (e.g.trunacy numbers) to identify those that

> are at risk! Giving them support road maps that help them respect themselves, each other - reward them for when they

> hit benchmarks of effort e.g tax relief, subsidised housing. Continued supprt to the age of 21.

All good ideas but expensive and labour intensive....although we may have no other choice. The key here of course is mentoring. Finding things that can appeal more to young people than the kudos of the group. I'm sure a lot of young people who do get caught up in these so called 'gang cultures' actually have no desire to bully or hurt anyone but often find themselves bullied by other members of the group and then too afraid to leave. I think support and a way out for those young people could be very effective.

> However, for those that are put on the support road and fail to adhere to it, or start to commit serious crime no

> more excuses. Named and shamed in local newspapers, benefit entitlements stopped, harder sentencing, harder prison

> environment -

Totally agree. It's often the ringleaders who are the ones who have no interest in any help offered. Zero tolerence with regards to them is going to be the only solution.

[pk]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The point is that we have a generation of young

> men and women who think voilence is perfectly

> acceptable behaviour for the most insignificnt of

> reasons.

'a generation'?! no we don't

[Andicam]

hislordshiplane Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

- reward them for when they

> hit benchmarks of effort e.g tax relief,

> subsidised housing. Continued supprt to the age of

> 21.

How would this have benefited these teenagers? Presumably the young lad in police custody was not supporting himself.

[ED - NAGAIUTB]

Andicam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> hislordshiplane Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> - reward them for when they

> > hit benchmarks of effort e.g tax relief,

> > subsidised housing. Continued supprt to the age

> of

> > 21.

>

> How would this have benefited these teenagers?

> Presumably the young lad in police custody was not

> supporting himself.

Surely our rampant benefits system already ensures that they have no need of these rewards as everything is laid out free on a plate from the get go and paid for by you and I?

Sorry, but the way things are going, zero tolerance is looking like the only way forward and if that means my taxes are spent on building more jails, then at least I know they are not being wasted for a change.

[Ridgley]

agree with DJKQ yes we do, pk you need get out more there is generation of young people that would like to punch your lights out if you stare at them to long or you can be travelling on a bus or train you accidentally step on there toes they want kill you just look at the town centres on a Friday night.

[ED - NAGAIUTB]

Ridgley Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> agree with DJKQ yes we do, pk you need get out

> more there is generation of young people that

> would like to punch your lights out if you stare

> at them to long or you can be travelling on a bus

> or train you accidentally step on there toes they

> want kill you just look at the town centres on a

> Friday night.

....because there is no consequence to their actions.

[louisiana]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisiana, you will find that a lot more teens

> than you realise identify as belonging to a gang

> or group....even if it only that of their school.

> And it's a culture reinforced in the music they

> listen to and the movies they watch.

DJKQ, I'm referring to cases where the media first report that the stabbing or whatever is part of some gang rivalry then it turns out that the individual murdered was (a) possible victim of mistaken identity (completely unknown to perpetrator) or (b) chance encounter in the street, on the bus etc. (perpetrator goes apeshit, victim could have been anyone). In other words the media attributes to gang culture attacks which as (as far as the victim is concerned) are random happenings.

[louisiana]

Cassius Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The good thing here is that they seem to only

> shoot each other.

>

> This is probably one of the worst things I have

> read on this forum for a long time. What a

> disgusting sentiment.

Indeed. Looks like the individual concerned has joined the forum just to post his comments about this thread.

[McCatllar]

I'm still reeling at the notion of a 13 year old with a gun.

[louisiana]

That is staggering. But the way we are going unless something serious happens to stop it.

[kateland]

The event keeps getting referred to as a birthday party....it was an under 18's event, invitations posted on facebook. Young people responding on facebook as to whether on not they are going.

A new thread should be started.

RIP :( xx

[DJKillaQueen]

In other words the media attributes to gang culture attacks which as (as far as the victim is concerned) are random happenings.

There's no doubt that the media is sometimes quick to jump to conclusions, but irregardless of that, teenagers are being murdered (usually by stabbings) with an alrming frequency not seen decades ago. There IS a shift in attitude/ culture call it what you will, towards a propensity for deadly violence in some young people. There must be a reason for that.

And yes, I would say drunken louts who kick in someones head on a saturday night are no different to the knife carrying teen that's prepared to use it. They both see violence as an acceptable form of behaviour and they both have no limit to the violence they are prepared to use.

Gang culture is a problem in it's own right because of the early ages that youngsters are recruited into it. Sure there have always been gangs in schools, usually a small group of hangers on to a bully ringleader - nothing has changed there. What has changed is the size and organisation of those groups of bullies. That is what can suitably be called a gang. It doesn't have to involve organised crime, just ringleaders, and followers.

[Tarot]

There is a gang in East Dulwich called The Duppies who posted themselves rapping on You tube, bragging about how

violent they were,then someone put it on this forum.

It appears the young black youth have no interest in life, other than being a gang member who carries weapons,and wants to emulate Los Angeles Ganksters.

There songs,even computer games reflect aggression.

How they are getting guns is a lack of customs or police attention.

They are supposed to be checking airports and ports for weapons,so how are guns in the hands of fluff faced little

boys,who kill people to show off.

Some people may say,its racist, all I can say is. It is the police who have set up a Trident squad for black crime.

They should bring back borstals.

[McCatllar]

Something I find somewhat upsetting...

On page 3 of this blog I wrote

"A reasonably reliable source tells me that, after shots being fired in Sainsbury's car park, a group of up to 15 boys chased an individual down Dog Kennel Hill and caught up with him outside the library where he was fatally stabbed".

This has now been translated as a "witness saw" by virtually every newspaper (including Nationals and the BBC) report. The 'reasonably reliable source' was, in fact, a barman at the pub a few yards along from the incident and it was second....or third...or any number you care to mention, hand. He said the attackers were black and the victim was white...so, not so reliable, huh?

I wish I had not posted anything now...and I guess more than a few EDF members will be, justifiably, saying the same. The account probably has some vestiges of truth but I think it would have probably been of more assistance to both the reporting of the incident, and the investgation, if the barman had kept his trap shut and I had been a bit more clued up as to how journalists now ply their trade.

Apologies.

[hislordshiplane]

louisiana Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Cassius Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The good thing here is that they seem to only

> > shoot each other.

> >

> > This is probably one of the worst things I have

> > read on this forum for a long time. What a

> > disgusting sentiment.

>

> Indeed. Looks like the individual concerned has

> joined the forum just to post his comments about

> this thread.

Louisiana, indded as I suspect you are in many cases your wrong. I moveed to ED 7 years ago and joined the forum about 4 years ago. I havee commented on eveything from traffic to opening times of the library. Nice assumption though. Also if you can be bothered to read all my threads you see that their is context to what I said and at least I have posted some solutions! Not arguing about what the media are doing. C'mon we all know there is a problem with violence in our community, we all know that if is more apparent in certain groups of our community - be honest and we can look at the cure!

[h3+]

It is all very sad. I was watching cartoons when I was 14.

I think there are no simple solutions. Certain young people seem to not to value their lives possibly through a lack of a plausible decent future. They may come from several generations of poverty and this seems to get entrenched.