Man stabbed to death near East Dulwich station

[McCatllar]

Thanks Taper for a robust response to Tarot's presumptive and patronising take on local people being interested in what is going on in their area...and why.

Imagine if no-one batted an eyelid. Cause and reason are important to future prevention and it is a role we all have in our community. I resent wanting to know what has occured almost next to my home being described as 'voyeurism'.

[Penguin68]

I have heard several quite different versions of the events we are discussing, some at least from people who actually know some of the people at least peripherally involved. Until the sequence of events is clear and agreed (and that may not be until there is a trial) almost all suggestions being made are well meaning but necessarily based on poor/ no information. There is little point in discussing solutions until the problem can be sufficientyly defined.

As I said in an earlier post, tragically at times very bad things happen and they cannot always be anticipated or planned for - I suspect that every weekend there are teenager's parties all over ED, with many of the same players as were at this one; normally these do not end in this sort of way. This one did, and I am sure that with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight vision we could determine how this particular one might have been avoided.

Which does not mean to say that a future tragedy, somewhere else in London or outside, could be avoided in the same way.

In the end this sort of crime is committed by people, inevitably individual and unique, whose response to particular events is again individual and unique.

Nothing we can reasonably do will mean that next time, different people will not respond in different and unexpected ways.

If we were to stop parties in ED, or ban teenagers from ED, or fill the neighbourhood with patrolling policemen, still bad things would from time-to-time happen, somewhere.

We stop it, perhaps, by changing the way people think about themselves and each other - but over a (long) time, and not by whingeing on a forum like this.

[kateland]

thanks pearson... :)

ofcourse these bars would not openly say they take details just incase we made trouble-but why else would they? looking back to when i was a 'young person' and frequented clubs/bars where trouble took place I know when schemes such as this were put in place it did help, but anyway this is a whole other post in itself. Our oyster cards keep a record of where we've travelled...facebook allows you to 'check in' at places....the list goes on...but yes this is another post.

We seem to have got off of the subject.

[Hamlets_Bar]

The party at Dulwich Hamlet was a 18th party, and everyone buying a drink was id'd. No matter where it was held or where in london, is not the point and to try to pin point blame on a venue, or otherwise in these circumstances is very wrong.

Dulwich hamlet is a football club, and also a health and social club, which hosts many a party, with great events and evenings and it is just so so sad a tragic event occured after this party. We cannot blame, the premises, cannot blame sainsburys, cannot blame the police. Maybe lets all try to think of the families today ok, and instead of all looking to blame lets look at society in general.

[taper]

Mccatllar

At best it's speculative; at worst it is I fear voyeuristic. The Police are the ones to establish the facts. There is nothing on this thread that will help do that.

[Miles]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> We stop it, perhaps, by changing the way people

> think about themselves and each other - but over a

> (long) time, and not by whingeing on a forum like

> this.

Very well put. I wholeheartedly agree.

[Miles]

kateland Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> thanks pearson... :)

>

> ofcourse these bars would not openly say they take

> details just incase we made trouble-but why else

> would they? looking back to when i was a 'young

> person' and frequented clubs/bars where trouble

> took place I know when schemes such as this were

> put in place it did help, but anyway this is a

> whole other post in itself. Our oyster cards keep

> a record of where we've travelled...facebook

> allows you to 'check in' at places....the list

> goes on...but yes this is another post.

>

> We seem to have got off of the subject.

I'm not having a go here, just clarifying - the venues requiring a copy of your id do tell you this, as to get in you need a photo id usually your passport or driving licence. They make it quite clear as most people dont take their passports with them on a night out.

[Hamlets_Bar]

It is all very well thinking id cards etc etc, but that is not going to happen, and if it did, soon enough fake id's will be available. Carrying a id card does not prove you would not commit a crime of any sort.

A id card will never stop crime. If a person is happy to carry a weapon and use it without even thinking of the pain and suffering they are causing, no id card will deter that. no matter where you are in london or the world. I actually am sad to say I hate the phase I blame the parents, but I do think the morals and words of your parents in upbringing mean so much, and as a mother of a 18 year old, and being bought up in south east london, think this is a big factor in todays youth crime.

Bring in the New York system of zero tolerance.......

[Pearson]

Best thing said so far:

Hamlets_Bar Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bring in the New York system of zero

> tolerance.......

[Hamlets_Bar]

Bluerevolution Wrote:

Thank you, as a experienced doorman you would well know these things occur without anyone at a venue even having a clue about it... It is not the venue's fault at all. Do people really think venues and the people working there would let these crimes happen??? Ridiculous.

As I have said earlier. And it saddens me so much as a mother of a 18 year old, it is society today for the youths, and I do truly blame a lot of the parents.

-------------------------------------------------------

> James, I fully appreciate what your are saying, as

> an experienced doorman/ security officer

> (Manchester) I have seen it all. (including having

> blood filled syringes pulled on me)

> We need to wait to find out what actually happened

> on Friday, assumption appears to be that it was

> all about the party at DHFC.

> We don't know if that was well supervised, I would

> think it was to be honest. There is a very good

> chance that someone annoyed someone else and phone

> calls were made, speculation I know.

> The perpetrator/s could well have been from well

> outside ED and therefore DHFC nor anyone else

> would have known nor could have done anything

> about this.

> I'd love to be able to give a simplistic answer to

> the knife/gun culture problem but there isn't

> one.

> Your earlier comment regarding Sainsburys openning

> hours wasn't really helpful, staff/security are

> not insured beyond the confines of the car park

> and would be trained/told do not under any

> circumstance pursue/deal with situations beyond

> those bounds, call the police by all means but do

> not get involved.

> Had someone called the police would it have made

> any difference? I doubt it.

> Police numbers at that time of night in this area

> would be negligible.

> When I worked night security (for a 24hr Tesco in

> Manchester), each division had and average of 6

> officers on duty, I doubt there is much difference

> here.

[kateland]

miles-just to 'clarify' how are you so quick to say clubs DO tell you this? should i list the several clubs in various parts of london who have stated its for membership purposes or such like?

why hav such a deafetest attitude? I am not naive in thinking an id card would stop crime....however....if for only the purpose of future under 18 events they had a list of young people/proof of address then IF there was a crime commited then this would help alot,no?

Yes, it is about your upbringing but I think as a society we all have some kind of responsibility .... too quick to close our eyes to what is going on around us...run home pretend like everything is perfect.

Is there anything that WE could be doing to help young people who never had such guidance/love etc etc...

[Hamlets_Bar]

Thanks. It worked for new york, and 10 years ago you would be scared to go on the subway there. Its a dream now, and all because they said ZERO TOLERANCE.... If the youth of today knew they would be banged up for life, would they do what they do??? NO.

Pearson Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Best thing said so far:

>

> Hamlets_Bar Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Bring in the New York system of zero

> > tolerance.......

[DJKillaQueen]

Problem is that our prisons are full.

[Hamlets_Bar]

I will end this on the fact that at this 18th party, there was adults and security, but as a mother of a 18 year old myself I never needed security for her 18th, but sad as it is today you do require it to an extent, yet still things happen.

And yes there are lots we can do to help the youth of today. How sad is it that one youngster can think nothing of wiping out the life of another? And yes I will say it again, I do in a lot of cases blame the parents, but also our society and the way this country is run.

It is only going to get worse.

[Hamlets_Bar]

But if the perpetrator knows prison for life is bound to happen, I bet they would think twice before they carried the knifes etc they do today and commit the crimes they do. They all know that killing as become a part of life accepted and easily got away with, so there is no detterent. But still what sickens me is how anyone can wipe out a life without thought, over absolutely nothing.

And I will repeat it again and again, I do blame a lot of parents

[sophiesofa]

If the parents do read this then they're going to feel pretty crap if they read lots of posts saying 'blame the parents' etc. We don't know the circumstances, I know you're not saying in this case it definitely was the parents fault, but there is no evidence for that.

Maybe start a thread in the lounge or drawing room if you want to discuss youth crime.

RIP

[DJKillaQueen]

If someone is found guilty of murder they do not get off lightly...they go to prison.....so it's no deterrent is it. The problem is that these kids don't even think of the consequences. They have no fear but for that of the psuedo gang culture they adopt.

[Ladymuck]

Brave post sophiesofa.(tu)

[JohnL]

Noticiably not involved at the moment - I suppose the Trident/Black thing is to allow integration with a culture as otherwise I'd have thought a gang/gun incident team would be better.

Bad vibes out at the moment - someone lying unconcious in the road outside the Bishop on Saturday - doormen were dragging him out of the path of cars.

Miles Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> prickle Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Jimmyay, has it been confirmed that the victim

> is

> > black?

>

>

> If operation trident are involved, they are the

> unit that investigates gun related murders in the

> black communities.

[jumpinjackflash]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

The problem is that these kids

> don't even think of the consequences. They have no

> fear but for that of the psuedo gang culture they

> adopt.

Exactly - well put....and this is what makes them dangerous little f**kers

[louisiana]

As yet we know nothing of the circumstances let alone whether this was anything to do with 'local gang culture'.

Such events all too frequently get blamed on gang rivalries when they are nothing of the sort.

What I am aware of is that a lot more kids seem to carry weapons than ever happened in my youth. They often claim it is for self defence. But carrying a weapon will lead to the weapon being used, and whoever it is used against (someone else or the carrier) it's going to be bad news. There really must be a change in culture and behaviour on this.

Many years ago (1980s) my first ever jury service case was a youth club stabbing. In these cases it's difficult for justice to be done: the jury is faced by a mass of contradictory 'evidence' from dozens of teens (plus then there are all those who are too frightened to give evidence).

Teens must stop carrying weapons. Period. I don't know how that is going to be achieved but unless that happens we really are on a downward spiral.

[breadcrum45]

Just seen more info

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3380257/Birthday-battle-Teen-stabbed-to-death-at-party.html

[DJKillaQueen]

Louisiana, you will find that a lot more teens than you realise identify as belonging to a gang or group....even if it only that of their school. And it's a culture reinforced in the music they listen to and the movies they watch.

There have always been playground bullies, that stole dinner money, but what we have now are school ground bullies (because after that's just what they are after all) in far greater numbers, using knives and other weapons, backed up by their gang....who are equally well equiped, stealing mobile phones primarily, from other school children. It is a problem that is more prevalent in areas and schools containing certain socio-economic groups. Both Schools, parents and the judicial system, can play a role in changing things but as is often the case, the parents of the worst offenders are just as bad as the children themselves.

Same problem as always, just a different and more deadly manisfestation and the chances of eradicating it are fraught with the same hurdles as always.

[kateland]

DJKillaQueen ..."containing certain socio-economic groups. Both Schools, parents and the judicial system, can play a role in changing things but as is often the case, the parents of the worst offenders are just as bad as the children themselves.

we are so getting off of the subject...please shall we start another thread discussing black gang culture in our lovely east dulwich? Because that is what this thread has almost turned in to. Why beat around the bush if you want to say something-say it. I grew up in an area that was prodominately white however crime, gang culture was everywhere. Just because the media does not report on 'gang culture' within many cultures does not mean it is not happening.

How can you make a comment abut the parents-how many young offenders and their parents have you met?

I pray the parents & friends of the young man who lost his life arent reading this thread and the young man may RIP xx

[JohnL]

Reports of some sinister posters on the Pelican estate mind you.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23913786-murder-estate-posters-warn-stop-snitching.do

That implies some gang activity to me. Much to early to link this.

louisiana Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As yet we know nothing of the circumstances let

> alone whether this was anything to do with 'local

> gang culture'.

>

> Such events all too frequently get blamed on gang

> rivalries when they are nothing of the sort.

>

> What I am aware of is that a lot more kids seem to

> carry weapons than ever happened in my youth. They

> often claim it is for self defence. But carrying a

> weapon will lead to the weapon being used, and

> whoever it is used against (someone else or the

> carrier) it's going to be bad news. There really

> must be a change in culture and behaviour on

> this.

>

> Many years ago (1980s) my first ever jury service

> case was a youth club stabbing. In these cases

> it's difficult for justice to be done: the jury is

> faced by a mass of contradictory 'evidence' from

> dozens of teens (plus then there are all those who

> are too frightened to give evidence).

>

> Teens must stop carrying weapons. Period. I don't

> know how that is going to be achieved but unless

> that happens we really are on a downward spiral.