Man stabbed to death near East Dulwich station

[BrandNewGuy]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> My point was simply that we made assumptions about

> who were culprits, and their motivation and

> background, regarding the Islamic terrorists, that

> turned out to be wrong. We could well be doing the

> same here. I am not suggesting that the two types

> of crime were similar in nature or motivation, my

> comment was about us, not about the criminals.

And I was saying that not everyone made those wrong assumptions and that many 'experts' in terrorism would have expected the perpetrators to be 'educated'. We can sociologise about the perpetrators of various sorts of crime, and criminologists do it all the time. Statistics will tell you everything about a population but nothing about an individual member of that poulation - which is one reason why this thread has become, er, problematic.

[pk]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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>> Something that is a fact is that there is a

> problem with the education of teenage black boys

> in schools (accross the board). They have the

> lowest levels of achievemnt and highest levels of

> illiteracy (usually because of truancy).

you're not that fussed about checking your 'facts' are you?

many recent reports say that the most underachieving group are white working class boys, by way of several credible examples: http://www.forwardpartnership.org.uk/node/318

[Penguin68]

Narnia wrote :-

Quote:

penguin68:Young men and violence are easy bedfollows

On what grounds can you possibly justify this statement? If you can't then I won't take anything you write seriously.

I think you will find that almost all reported acts of mindless (gang) violence in our streets are associated with young men (there are some girl gangs, but relatively few). I am not saying that all young men are violent, but that when men are young, testosterone fuelled (as young men are) and wanting to make their mark in a sociey, violence is a typical response. Add alcohol as a disinhibiter (and very many do) and you have a recipe for violence.

There are some 'young middle aged' violent men (some of the football gangs of the 70s and 80s had 25-35 year old thugs in them) but, in the main, violence is a young man's game. You are violent often when you have nothing much to lose (no family yet to support, often no job worth it's name to risk losing) when you are physically at a peak and when you have over-much energy (it's amazing how a full-time demanding job and full-time demanding children can wear you out).

I could refer you, but I won't, to numerous articles by social anthropologists on the links to gang or group violence and late adolesence, and how this normally dissipates over time. And the numerous studies showing how male children have a tendancy to play-act violent confrontations (Cops & Robbers, Cowboys and Indians in my day). Many young (male) animals also 'play-fight' and then, as young adults, really fight over mates etc.

The young have two things going for them, physcial vigour and a sense of personal immortality. Without those we wouldn't have the necessary fuel to sustain the wars that older men (politicians) get others to undertake for them.

[DJKillaQueen]

And not everyone on this thread had been racist either, or inferred that only teenage black males commit knife crime. Invaiably though, the moment anyone tries to talk about 'culture' there are going to be references drawn on ethnic, or national or gender based lines even. It's complex.

[DJKillaQueen]

PK you are referring to the Bow group survey (did you read the telegraph for that one?). Even that report, and it's one of many, shows that more than half of working class black boys can not read and write properly by the age of 14, some 54% of them, and the same can be said for white boys at 63%. Other reports show the difference to be the other way round but just as close.

Both are shocking stats and shouldn't be so high. When you have that many poorly achieving boys (from lower socio-economic groups) who can not read and write properly you are bound to get problems elsewhere. There is absolutely nothing wrong in highlighting that and nor is it racist to do so.

My interest is only that ALL schoolchildren, black or white, leave school equiped for life as productive members of society. But how can any of us have that conversation if we can't tell it like it is.

[daveknows]

theres always going to be racist comments by small minded people, I'm White but I know things about black people many white people dont know, like when their parents find out what they been going on with, theres a major whooping about to happen. so quick to label ethics but younger ethnic children have alot more respect for there parents than white children.

Many black children are a product of there social environment (not home environment) mainly because they have these worthless role models pushed in their faces on a daily basis. you only hear about rappers, never the black doctors or lawyers. can music be partly to blame? yes. can schools be partly to blame? yes. can some racist white people be partly to blame? yes. there can be alot of factors as to why, the younger generation just needs enlightenment so realise their true potential and standings in the world.

[Tarot]

Dully, the truth often hurts.

While people are in denial of reality, they cannot move forward.

In this tragic incident,it is said they were black.

But whatever colour, they were cowardly.

[daveknows]

Tarot Wrote:

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> Dully, the truth often hurts.

> While people are in denial of reality, they

> cannot move forward.

> In this tragic incident,it is said they were

> black.

> But whatever colour, they were cowardly.

Well versed

[Keef]

If an area has a high number of "youths" from any ethnic group, then chances are that people from those groups are going to get in to trouble. Take a walk around Eltham, then try and tell me that it's always black kids stabbing each other. Skin colour is not the cause of this sort of thing.

[dully]

Tarot Wrote:

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> Dully, the truth often hurts.

> While people are in denial of reality, they

> cannot move forward.

> In this tragic incident,it is said they were

> black.

> But whatever colour, they were cowardly.

You are a bigot plain and simple Tarot, it is attitudes like yours that will keep the world small and stupid. I'm a big fan of the truth and I'm seeing little of it on this thread and absolutely none of it in your posts. If every black person I know went to uni or has a professional job and did not involve ourselves in knife crime then where do we exist in your world?

what about Steven lawrence? what about the more well known stabbings like brook kinsella's brother or the "Harry Potter" star that were stabbed to death. It wasn't black youths that stabbed them.

Yes, in this instance the people involved were black. It is one singular point about them. The colour of skin does not make the man and why should everyone of a colour then be painted with the same brush as belonging to a knife welding group? Rubbish. Absolute toss.

[Keef]

I will say though that cultural idols such as lots of American gangsta rappers, do have some blood on their hands.

[DJKillaQueen]

Anything that glorifies the use of violence, weapons, and so on is irresponsible imo.

[Keef]

There is a fine line. I dont want to see all action films (for example) edited to remove guns. However, when a rapper / singer is openly talking about going out and killing people, and needing "respect", there is a problem IMO.

Dear God, when did I get all old.

[jimmyay]

Karl Hungus Wrote:

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> jimmyay Wrote:

> > I bet you ?1000 the murderers and victim came

> from

> > highly disfunctional, disadvantaged backgrounds

> > with a history of big trouble and probably

> parents

> > and relatives doing time for all manner of

> crime

> > and well known to the police.

>

> What a deeply unpleasant piece of s**t you must

> be, jimmyay. I'm staggered by how offensive some

> of the posts on this thread have been.

and i am quite staggered how naive some people are about the realities of inter generational social problems in London

i say again, 13 year old lads dont just go out tooled up with a gun without there being big issues at home, the like of which most genteel EDFers can't even start to imagine.

The calls of "racist" at me & others are laughable.

[dully]

If you think it is laughable to be a racist then I pity you. There are people who have more of an understanding in the world to know that shoving problems onto skin colour is backwards and small minded. You are not blessed with some ability to see a truth the rest of us are blind to. If you said working class and deprived then you might be onto something but then you wouldn't because it would be too much of a generalisation. Generalisations are a lazy mans logic.

[Keef]

Unless I'm mistaken, there is no proof that a 13 year old went out tooled up with a gun. Only that he had it on him after the event. That could mean any number of things.

[nubian]

Whose seen Scarface; Alcapcino; The Godfather; American Gangster and other films of that ilk, and of those of you whom are male, who wouldn't rate them as amonsgt their favourite films? These movies are fantacies for most of us, but in my view, are what a number of these so called 'gangster rappers' aspired too. They however, in the main were able to live that lifestyle, sing about it and realise the dream. Many young males, black and white suffer from poor education, limted job prospects, discrimination, etc If you were them, what/who do you aspire too - possibly someone you can identify with and something that someone else has made seem accessible?

Unfortunately, the policies of the current government, in my view, are not taking account of the social impact of their decisions. Tuition fee rises; severe reductions in third sector,police service and social care funding will have a significant impact upon those young people who could, in the past, be caught by the system before their behaviour esculated. This problem will therefore get worse and not better. This type of crime increased by 8% in 2010 (it was decreasing before this) so brace yourself people.

And yes, parents do need to take some responsibility, but how many of you know what your children are doing when they're not at home. And, although many of you may not be in the lower socio ecomonic class, imagine if all your thoughts were about paying your bills, keeping a roof over your head, feeding and clothing your kids - would you actually have the time to monitor your child's every movement? Wouldn't you be glad if they weren't pressing you for money every day?

As the divide between the 'haves' and 'haves not' increases (see Mexico, Brazil, South Africa and many other countries) young people, like any other mammal, will find a way to survive (remember Slumdog millionaire!).

Brace yourself people for the Big Society because I can guarantee you it will end in one Big Almight Mess(BAM!)

I hope Daniel rests in peace and instead of sitting writing (in some cases) patronising and racist blogs we start to understand and get to grips with what happening in this country.

[pk]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> PK you are referring to the Bow group survey (did

> you read the telegraph for that one?).

there are loads of studies - some references were provided on the link i offered you last time to higlight that what you presented as fact probably isn't, but you don't care

what's the telegraph got to do with anything

> Even that report, and it's one of many, shows that more than

> half of working class black boys can not read and

> write properly by the age of 14, some 54% of

> them, and the same can be said for white boys at

> 63%. Other reports show the difference to be the

> other way round but just as close.

so why say that black boys are the lowest achievers?

and why do you keep making excuses for the racists?

[Keef]

Very good post nubian.

[zeban]

Keef Wrote:

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> Very good post nubian.

What Keef said

[citizenED]

And weirdly, since he has some worrying views, I'd like to thank jimmyay for bringing this debate back to the fore. Without his ignorant and simplistic opinions ("Yes but it does seem to be pretty much all black teenagers who are stabbing and killing each other." my emphasis) we wouldn't have dully's, nubian's and Penguin's wiser comments.

[DJKillaQueen]

PK I do not make excuses for racists but nor do I tolerate every mention of 'black teenager' as being labled as racist.

Why you seem intent on picking a fight on a point that is clear....that too many boys from lower socio-economic backgrounds fail at aschool, is mystifying. My point has been consistent throughout, improve education, work with parents and give these youngsters other options than gang culture, knives and so on. And in fact one reason why the gap has closed between white and black male pupil failure rates is because of the work done to target ethnic minority groups in schools. Try looking at the stats for ten years ago and you'll see a very different gap.

In fact in every post I have made clear the link between socio-economic groups and anti-social behaviour. Just because I also am prepared to face the hard cultural realities of some of these groups does not mean I'm making excuses for racists.

[pk]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> I do not make excuses for racists but nor do I

> tolerate every mention of 'black teenager' as

> being labled as racist.

>

and not every mention is, is it? just some of them - generally ones that make invalid sweeping generalisations or misrepresent 'facts'

no-one's denying that there are issues either, are they?

[????]

And another perspective...especially when you're a young male

being in a gang is fun

being in a gang is cool

being in a gang gives you status

being in a gang can give you protection

being in a gang can be part of the norm in your social group so can be inevitable

gangs tend to stick together and not like gangs from other areas.....or gangs that support a different football team to (you as it used to be)

All these are truths...nothing to do with the Tories or your parents or school

race is an irrelevance to this it's just part of inner city/tougher suburb life and nowadays inner city youths in london are more likely to be black/mixed race.

Glasgow got plenty of white boys stabbing innit

[LadyDeliah]

Someone mentioned Chinese and other cultures as not being violent and then another perosn mentioned the Triads and someone else the white scarface type gangsters.

It got me thinking about hierarchy in gangsterland and who would be at the top controlling things and who might be bottom of the pile and more visible through lack of access to the real money and police etc.

I also remember some pretty violent Eastern European gangsters settling in the UK some time back.

I wonder how much of the petty street crime and violence is from people wanting to get a piece of the action and have a 'career' in the alternative economy of criminals and gangsters. How would someone with no contact with real gangsters who are making the serious money find their way in? I knew a few old school villians in the past and they were pretty racist. They wouldn't promote anyone who wasn't white in their organisation. I knew one mixed race villian who had made it quite big, but that was because his white mum was the sister of a boss.

This may all seem irrelevant, but I was just thinking that if the career ladder for gangsterism in this country is blocked for black wannabes, then would that mean that more black wannabe gangsters without contacts, but who desperately want to be part of the gangster life are relying on idiot rappers to tell them how to make it?

I know idiot white guys too who want to make it but don't have connections, but as far as I know, all the big time gangster money making areas have been cornered by white gangsters who are extremely violent but more organised, so don't generally stab someone in front of a bus load of people.

Not that I hang around with these kinds of people or anything, of course.