Man stabbed to death near East Dulwich station

[Tarot]

Im sorry I forgot to add ,he was also charged with dealing Class A drugs,and that all was included in that sentence.

But he came from a broken home etc etc.

I cant see why this should bear any outcome on a criminal act.

Oh I suppose its mothers fault, didnt love them enough .

[ianr]

When I looked at some of the local licensing conditions, at the time that people here were talking about occasional noise from DHFC, I was struck by variations between establishments, for I don't know what reasons There was and is one, the Black Cherry, which is actually required to do metal scans, on Fridays and Saturdays after 22:00.

"342 - That SIA registered Door Supervisor, shall be employed every Friday and Saturday after 22.00hrs and the terminal hour that the premises are in use under this licence and provided with Hand held metal detection units in order to ensure that searches are carried out in respect of all admissions to the premises, whether members of the public or performers and their assistants and Mechanical counting devices to ensure that the maximum accommodation limit of the premises is not exceeded." http://app.southwark.gov.uk/licensing/LicPremisesGrantedDetails.asp?systemkey=833704

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Wished I had not read this:

Latest news News

I really really hope the witnesses will speak up on Daniel's behalf. It is a horrible tragic incident and I hope that someone out there will be brave enough to help those who did this to him punished by stating what they saw.

I watched the iplayer Scenes from a teenage killing and I cried , as a mother , it is just one of my fears of something like this happening.

RIP Daniel, and I would not even like to hazard a guess to how his family must be feeling :(

[DJKillaQueen]

It's a pity the Police didn't take names and addresses of every passenger on the bus at the time instead os now asking for anyone that was on the bus to come forward.

[louisiana]

One week on, our thoughts go out for Daniel Graham and his family.

[jimmyay]

All the police do nowadays in London is try to contain all this sort of crime (black on black, guns and knives) in particular areas. Its the same as New York in the 80s.

We are shocked when it comes out into our safe little world but the reality is we live on the edge of a poor ghetto choc full of barely literate people, and also many who have come from war torn countries or are physcologically damaged in some other way.

Its time we stopped hand wringing and started real intervention rather than making excuses. However the communities in these ghettos need to also realise there is a problem with their kids and the way they bring their kids up & stop blaming police, stop and search, the government, etc.

When i made a point about black parents up thread there was horror that i might "assume" the victim and perpretrators were black and hang wringing liberal outrage ensued.

However this has been borne out in the later reports. Just a sad young black boy murdered, and other parents not knowing ( ir caring?) that their 13 year old might be using firearms.

I'm sorry but this whole situation is by and large a parenting issue and the lack of father figures and role models plays a big part and you have to ask yourself why this is.

Doubtless some posters will find reasons to put blame on anyone but the familes that are responsible for bringing these kids up.

[Penguin68]

As there is no public information about any of those accused of these two crimes (and indeed I am not sure if anyone yet has even been charged, let alone convicted of course, all we have are arrests and police bail at the moment, not the same thing) assertions about the background and circumstances of those who actually are responsible seems wholly misplaced.

Until I have knowledge I plan to blame nobody, let alone look for solutions to problems which have not yet been defined.

[DJKillaQueen]

There's no question it is a complicated issue and involves controversial aspects with redards to culture, nationality, ethnicity and so on (mainly because of the socio economic groups those affected sterotypes tend to be found in) and I have to agree that in order to combat anything we have to look at the cold hard facts instead of pretending it isn't any other way. Culture is not something that evolves overnight and similarly it takes time and lot of intervention to correct or change.

Gang violence is also nothing new. Have we forgotton the organised punch ups between rival football fans in the 70's and 80's for example, or the mods and rockers of the 60's......all English born and bred.

Parenting is definitely important but we now have a situation where parents have lost many rights to discipline their children. Many young people have no respect or fear of adults, even for those in authority, like parents, teachers and Police and they all know their rights. In reality....it is actaully very difficult to do anything about unruly children and many parents just give up. And children who do get into criminal activity have to commit hundreds of burgaries etc before they lose any real freedom. The truth is that for the majority of young people that behave anti-socially....they get away with it.

[James Barber]

I think Penguin68 is spot on.

Lets wait until all the facts come out later.

Really depressing the way young people are being demonised - and the savagery of the attack is shocking.

But we never hear or notice the well behaved kids. The kids who are careres looking after parents who aren't well.

[DJKillaQueen]

I know a witness penguin who was on the bus and saw everything in relation to that attack....and more importantly knows what the ethnic origin of the attackers (and there were lot's of them) were. That in itself may not be significant or simply reinforces an 'assumed' stereotype, but a group of teenagers/ young men mob handedly murdering someone is something that can be explored from a human perspective. It's an inexcusable act of aggression no matter who carries it out and as a society we need to have better ways of discouraging some young people from engaging in voilence as a solution to everything.

[Penguin68]

The issue here may not be ethnicity but background - for all we know the perpetrators of these crimes may well come from well ordered and managed homes, fully stocked with parents. Until we know the backgrounds of those eventually convicted speculation as to cause is irrelevant.

Young men and violence are easy bedfollows - if that wasn't so our armed forces would find recruitment a real problem - they mange to divert an underlying and common urge into something which we find socially useful (as long as the soldiers are somewhere far away, and not knocking around a UK garrison town letting off steam).

We have young men who have found a channel for their natural tendencies (possibly) which we find alarming and dreadful - but let's hold back from blaming society and whatever before we know what to blame ourselves for.

Oh yes, if society is to blame then, unless we are contactless hermits (and obviously no one on this forum is that), we are that society which needs to shoulder the blame. We (all) create the contexts collectively in which we all live.

[Kat]

I think the issue mainly derived from their ethnicity. How many Chinese, Japanese or Indian have you seen in the street robbing and stabbing each other? The eastern cultures are brought up by their parents to value education, education and education no matter what their social background is. If society is to blame for the violence of young men, then why the eastern cultures are not affected?

[dully]

That is so offensive as are a lot of the comments on this thread. The chinese community has the triads. Please don't let your own ignorance be an excuse for perpetuating falsehoods and bull.

Crime violence and all that comes down to individuals and subsequently groups of individuals. There is a myriad of ways you could perceive these individuals - criminals would do. There is not need to insult ethnic minorities and black people on mass based on your suppositions.

I used to see the victim about and nod a polite hello to him. He seemed very sweet and lovely. That is him as a person.

Me as a black youth went to university as did all the other black youths in my year at school. It is SO RUDE that people will "black youths this and that" without appreciating there are scores of white drug dealers and gang warfare up and down the country. Anti social and criminal behaviours come down to personality disorders and poor decision making. Because a handful of people act that way why does that give you the right to rain down your horrible ignorance on black people. You know living in london how fractured and splintered all community is for everyone that you need to stop blaming and pigeon holing any "black groups" to blame.

Everytime a white person killed someone how would you like it if the rest of the world sighed, washed their hands of it and said oh its those white english people at it again.

Tarot - you in particular need to check yourself up and down for being plain backwards.

[jimmyay]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The issue here may not be ethnicity but background

> - for all we know the perpetrators of these crimes

> may well come from well ordered and managed homes,

> fully stocked with parents. >

What total nonsese.

I bet you ?1000 the murderers and victim came from highly disfunctional, disadvantaged backgrounds with a history of big trouble and probably parents and relatives doing time for all manner of crime and well known to the police.

You don't accidentally become a thirteen year old waging war with a gun whikst skipping between piano lessons and speech and drama classes, onr a 15 year old ready to knife another teenager to death with a mob.

Honestly , these predictable, head in the samnd responses are just laughable and deny the reality of this lost generation of young men.

i want to mean well too and don't want to automatically "assume" a detailed profile of the killers and victims when i hear stories like this about the east dulwich murder.

It's just that 95% of the time, the profile is correct.

as someone else posted they rarely fall outside this profile of the underclass.

[jimmyay]

dully Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> That is so offensive as are a lot of the comments

> on this thread. The chinese community has the

> triads. Please don't let your own ignorance be an

> excuse for perpetuating falsehoods and bull.

>

> Crime violence and all that comes down to

> individuals and subsequently groups of

> individuals. There is a myriad of ways you could

> perceive these individuals - criminals would do.

> There is not need to insult ethnic minorities and

> black people on mass based on your suppositions.

>

> I used to see the victim about and nod a polite

> hello to him. He seemed very sweet and lovely.

> That is him as a person.

>

> Me as a black youth went to university as did all

> the other black youths in my year at school. It is

> SO RUDE that people will "black youths this and

> that" without appreciating there are scores of

> white drug dealers and gang warfare up and down

> the country. Anti social and criminal behaviours

> come down to personality disorders and poor

> decision making. Because a handful of people act

> that way why does that give you the right to rain

> down your horrible ignorance on black people. You

> know living in london how fractured and splintered

> all community is for everyone that you need to

> stop blaming and pigeon holing any "black groups"

> to blame.

>

> Everytime a white person killed someone how would

> you like it if the rest of the world sighed,

> washed their hands of it and said oh its those

> white english people at it again.

>

>

> Tarot - you in particular need to check yourself

> up and down for being plain backwards.

Yes but it does seem to be pretty much all black teenagers who are stabbing and killing each other. Its hard to deny this. Certainly doesnt make it racist to point it out and it does raise questions . your post smacks of defensiveness to be honest ok there are problems in all communities but a lot of young lost boys in the black community and i think the community needs to examine why this is the case and try and act to stop it, rather than somehow deny it & blame it on white racism.

[Penguin68]

Er, irony alert. And I stick by my assertion that speculation in advance of knowledge in this area is silly. Remember how surprised we all were when the Islamic bombers in Glasgow airport turned out to be doctors from stable middle class British born backgrounds, as were the London bombers (British born at least). The chances are that the perpetrators did come from a poor disadvantaged background, they may even have come from fully dysfunctional families, but we simply don't know. And one thing we do know is that people from the same ethnic background (and frequently from the same economic background) form fully rounded and valued members of society.

[pk]

jimmyay Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes but it does seem to be pretty much all black

> teenagers who are stabbing and killing each other.

>

what an a**ehole

[Narnia]

On what grounds can you possibly justify this statement? If you can't then I won't take anything you write seriously.

[mynamehere]

I work with teenages and I can assure you with emphasis:Children headed for trouble come in all "colours" and children headed for the top do too.

[Karl Hungus]

jimmyay Wrote:

> I bet you ?1000 the murderers and victim came from

> highly disfunctional, disadvantaged backgrounds

> with a history of big trouble and probably parents

> and relatives doing time for all manner of crime

> and well known to the police.

What a deeply unpleasant piece of s**t you must be, jimmyay. I'm staggered by how offensive some of the posts on this thread have been.

[BrandNewGuy]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Er, irony alert. And I stick by my assertion that

> speculation in advance of knowledge in this area

> is silly. Remember how surprised we all were when

> the Islamic bombers in Glasgow airport turned out

> to be doctors from stable middle class British

> born backgrounds, as were the London bombers

> (British born at least).

But this is 'cause-related' terrorism/violence, rather than the violence of the streets, which is very different. In fact, research into the sociology of 'terrorism' has for a long while suggested a significant link between political violence and higher than average levels of education. In that respect, many 'Muslim terrorists' are little different from the Baader-Meinhof Gang, the Red Army Faction and a host of non-Muslim groups who've resorted to political violence to further their 'causes'.

[Penguin68]

My point was simply that we made assumptions about who were culprits, and their motivation and background, regarding the Islamic terrorists, that turned out to be wrong. We could well be doing the same here. I am not suggesting that the two types of crime were similar in nature or motivation, my comment was about us, not about the criminals.

[DJKillaQueen]

As rightly pointed out, a child doesn't just wake one day and start carrying a knife and be prepared to use it, or worse still a gun. Something has already gone very wrong in that child's environment beforehand (whatever it may be) to get to that.

Lot's of energy has been put into trying to pursuade children not to carry knives and take drugs etc and all the other ills that can lead to trouble......but too many are taking no notice.

Something that is a fact is that there is a problem with the education of teenage black boys in schools (accross the board). They have the lowest levels of achievemnt and highest levels of illiteracy (usually because of truancy). It is a fully recognised problem area, not just for boys of particular ethnic origin but boys as a whole.

The problem is even more acute in America and Canada.

A lot of things are being tried to address this but imo this has a direct correlation to what is then happening in our communities. To pretend otherwise is going to do nothing for those most affected.

[Jeremy]

Jimmyay, Kat - you may have a point, in that tragically, there does appear to be a problem amongst young, black males in London. But the way you (and others) choose to dwell on that on this thread just strikes me as rather insensitive and tasteless. Emotions are still raw, and friends and family have undoubtedly been reading this thread. You have to consider people's feelings, and you have to avoid tarring huge swathes of the community with the same brush. And as Dully suggests, other communities have their own problems too.

[dully]

There is no black community as much as there is no white community so why is it the responsibilities of the black community?

Of course it smacks of defensiveness - you spend your whole life trying to be the best person you can and have some pillock turn around and say all black youths are knife welding reprobates. It is hugely offensive and no more my mess to clean up than it is anyone else in the area. When people talk about the "black community" it only points out how much you as an individual distance black people from yourself that you think there is some other "black community". There is (supposed) to be no apartheid in this country but whenever something like this happens then "ooo, no, that black community".

It happened in east dulwich yours and our community.

There are plenty of different ethnicities involved in knife crime. It is in no way explicitly the domain of the mythical black community. The majority of stabbings you hear about may involve black people but I assure you that there is a multitude of diversity when it comes to knife crime.

Going on about not being able to say anything without being dubbed a racist is nonsense. It is possible to discuss these matters without being racist. Dismissing the whole issue as down to black people puts up barriers and prevents people from trackling the real issues at hand.