seventh cycle of sleep help - 18mths & still waking

[jctg]

Has anyone got any success stories for sleep training (not controlled crying, well not yet anyway...) when you've already dropped the night feed. My daughter still wakes twice a night and does not go easily back to sleep without a fight. She can cry for up to two hours in my arms in bed. (How safe does she want to be??)

All the stuff I've looked at (e.g. no cry sleep and jaygordon)is about night weaning and remove the breast but we stopped the night feed back in Sept and I don't feed before 5am but she still ewakes between 12 & 3 and sometimes is up beween for all 3 hrs. She goes to sleep but v briefly and stirs and starts all over again.

Should I go cold turkey on the morning feed and send DH in to settle back in the cot regardless of how long it takes? I can stomach about 1.5 hrs before I lose the plot, he's more like 20 mins!

I don't think I've had more than 5/6 hours sleep in a row since Dec 2009 and it's killing me. I work FT and am making mistakes at work plus am fighting with other half. All v ugly. Any help?

Argh, just noticed that Forum is down at 9... well, I'll probably be up at some point so will check back in the wee hours.

[Fuschia]

How are her naps? Was she so wakeful pre night weaning?

[Yorkie]

she's woken at 12 since 6 months when solids started (& stopped due to allergies) so BM only til 7 mths. Naps hit & miss (40 mins if bad night 1.5 - 2hrs if easy resettle. I did night feed when she was ill over Xmas which I think has probay mucked it all up...

[Yorkie]

oops, it's me. Was on OH's laptop!

Title meant to read HELL not help but equally applicable. Had 4.5hrs last night and work stress v bad. Should prob just give in & go to bed.

[Fuschia]

So probably the bad sleep was initially linked to allergy (she doesn't have any now?) and as you say, she is currently wanting milk at night.

Unless you want to reintroduce the night feed and night wean later, I'd be inclined to ask DH to try the 12-3 session, obviously you trying to comfort her isn't working...

Some routine to the day, good calm bedtime routine, plenty to eat, and if possible good naps, will all improve night time sleeping.

But you know, I'd check there is no medical problem/allergy

[Yorkie]

interesting thought re allergy. It was a year ago & everything on that front hasn't come back. Will go to Drs as you suggest. She loves her milk (cow & mine) that I really hope it's not! Amazingly last night she skipped the 12-3 wake and went from 9-5.30!! Babies eh, she must've known I'd reported her to the EDF. Thanks Fuschia.

[Saffron]

Little Saff got in a cycle like this too. It was very frustrating. I don't mind doing night feeds, since that puts her back to sleep easily. It was her early morning cluster feeding that was killing me. At 11mo she was still often awake 2 or 3 times a night (then waking up at 5:30!).

Hubby and I decided to try a non-conventional approach over the winter holidays just before Little Saff's 1st bday. We kept her up really, really late, often with friends over and lots of activity, but also sometimes just me and hubby with a bit of television and some baby games. When I say late, I do mean late, sometimes midnight. She was so knackered, she'd sleep until 7:30. What a blessing! This seems to have broken the pattern for her. Now she sleeps from 8pm to 6am (until the next development step/tooth/runny nose probably!).

I don't know if that will work for you. I guess my point is that if you've tried lots of other things, maybe throw away the books and do something completely different?

[The Nappy Lady]

Yorkie,

Sympathy.....C was awful until about 15 months, with me still going in to her, breastfeeding, sleeping in with her etc. At 15 months (last January actually) it reached breaking point, she didn't really want to feed anymore, but we started having a party in her cot from about 2am until 4am, then she'd go back to sleep until around 9am. It was over Christmas so OK...but I realised it just wasn't going to work once I had to get up, get O to school and myself to work, so I resolved to sort it out.

Afraid though from your post you will not want to do what we did. Basically, I told her Mummy isn't going to come and cuddle or feed you in the night any more when I put her to bed, and then she got put down as usual. When she woke and cried DH went in and told her 'go back to sleep it isn't morning yet' and then walked away. With both children this worked exactly the same way - first night crying for about 40 minutes, second night 20 minutes, third night 10 minutes and then they learnt to sleep through, or self soothe I guess.

I hasten to add that we were listening and prepared to go in if necessary, but you could hear the crying was angry rather than distressed/hurt. With our first we tried the whole controlled crying going in and out to them and I found that made her more upset - each time I went in she thought I was going to pick her up, then when I walked away she'd go more ballistic. So, we tried just going in once, being firm and then walking away and it worked.

I know not everyone will agree, or want to do what we did, but this method worked the first time on a much younger child, second time around I was much softer and committed to going in to baby C for as long as she needed me, but in the end it was wrecking me, I was truly exhausted, run down and ill, and she and I both needed to start getting a full nights sleep again, so I don't have any regrets.

I know as a mother I've always found it very hard to just let my babies cry, and have been prone to run to them the minute they wake up from a nap, or get fed up of being on a play mat or whatever. I'm glad I've been able to be that kind of Mum, but I think sometimes we make it very hard on ourselves. When you think (and I'm not saying it is right), that babies used to get left in a pram in the garden or cot so Mothers could get on with the MASSIVE amount of housework they used to have to do, I suspect we have created children that develop much faster because they get much more stimulation, but that are also way more demanding because we don't really give them the chance to learn to settle themselves.

Anyway, bit of a random dump of information, and bracing myself for lots of comments about being an awful Mum for leaving my children to cry themselves to sleep now (please not people - it's all water under the bridge now and I have two very happy, well balanced girls, honest).

Just wanted to give you some moral support really. Hope things improve soon.

xx

[helena handbasket]

Great post Molly!

[redjam]

Yes, v. good post, Molly - I've always been pretty tough on my girls at night (once we'd got out of the newborn stage), in the firm belief that I'm a better mum to them during the day if I've had a good night's sleep. If that's meant putting them down in the cot while still crying and walking out the door with a brisk 'sleep tight now, darling!', then so be it. Obviously if they carried on crying I'd go back in, but generally after the first few excruciating minutes they'd soothe themselves, and as a result I've always thought of them as 'good' sleepers. Obviously you've got to feel comfortable with the idea before you try it, but, boy, if I were in your shoes I'd give it a go!

[Tara]

I agree - I did my own version of controlled crying when A was about 10 months and then at intermittent periods if there's a setback and it totally worked for us. Felt like a bad mum for half an hour or so but then felt much better when she went to sleep and was happy as larry the next day after a good night's sleep - and happy to go to bed the next night - obviously I had not damaged her psychologically! I need my sleep and some time to myself in the evening, and weighing this up against how I feel after a bad night completely believe that it was the right decision for us. Completely understand that people are different, have different contexts etc, but I would advise that def worth a try for a couple of nights if you're up for it.

[The Nappy Lady]

I remember both times we decided to get tough hubby and I lying in bed alternately reassuring or worrying.....so I'd so "enough, I'm going in" and he would say "it's OK, just hang on 5 more minutes"...then he'd be saying "do you think she is OK?" and I'd be saying "yes you can hear she's just cross".....and so it would go on.

You do have to be pretty tough to follow this method, and if it hadn't worked in 3 days both times I'm not sure I'd have stuck it out for a lot longer, but it is worth the pain in my opinion.

[Ruth_Baldock]

I used to be anti- CC but now we've done it with Seb, I can see why sometimes people have no choice. I was actually looking at photos of him the other day, pre-decent sleeping and the poor bubs had massive bags/dark circles under his eyes and was yawning in about two thirds of the photos D: He was getting 7hrs sleep in a 24hr period, just not good enough.

CC was hard for us to do, and it took about 10 days really to work (not 10 days of screeching for an hour each night, but you know what I mean). I remember getting back from work one day, to hear him screaming (day 2 of CC, husband picked him up from MILs as I didn't finish till 6.30pm) and it was awful. Every day that week, I was sick at work just before hometime because I was a bag of nerves. It quickly got better and he usually has a good chuckle to himself when he sees his cot now, and tries to get in before I've even put his night-time nappy on.

Different things work for different people: Yorkie, I hope you find a solution that works for you all xx

[Yorkie]

I do hear what you're saying, it's just that if she cries for 2 hours with one of us how many hours will she yell for if we don't go in. 2,3,4? I will crack and then it we will all have been upset for nothing. I know CC does work and I know I'm of the verge of losing the plot but I feel, ironically, that I need to be in a strong place in order to see it through. I'm much more resilient than OH about crying (she has been left for the short going to sleep cries and I can switch off, he can't so much.

We're on holiday in a week, with brother & kids so no option to do drastic training but maybe I'll try dropping feed then as at least can go back to bed.

[The Nappy Lady]

I do understand, & in a flat I can imagine you worry about disturbing neighbours too maybe. Not suggesting you should do it if it doesn't feel right.

On the timing front - C played up / partied for 3 hours when I was in with her, but only cried for 40 mins max when I refused to go & play her game....you know babies, they never do what you expect them too!

Another thought if it's a new thing is that it may be teeth or related to a developmental spurt?

[helena handbasket]

My son was also the child who cried as long as it went on, hours if he needed to, and I couldn't mentally take it.

So what I resorted to was to pull of a small stool beside the crib, put him in it, snuggles etc and then night night lights out. And then I sat on the stool and ignored him. He bounced around and shrieked a lot in the beginning and I think I did a lot of pick up put down, but mostly I just sat on the stool so he knew I was there and let him work himself out. Every so often I'd hold his hand and say "I love you but you're okay and it's sleepy time now" and that's it. The sad truth is you can't do anything to reinforce the waking, so snuggles and all the nice stuff just keeps them coming back for more. Seems cruel but truthfully my only son will likely need therapy for all the constant hugs and kisses he has to endure from his overly affectionate mother so don't think he's too love deprived.

I won't lie, it didn't take three days and I started in the daytime at nap time because I knew there was no way in hell I'd be able to really follow through at night, but it didn't take long to see progress and it carried over to night time quite quickly.

I did get a little tiny book light and read on my little stool to pass the time. Felt a bit like a hostage for a while but honestly it felt like a much nicer way to pass the "hideous hour" than fighting with a tired baby.

I think I mostly followed Baby Whisperer but had to really modify the plan for my very dramatic spirited son.

If nothing else it could be a good excuse to take some quiet time away from family?

[snowboarder]

Yorkie - think I might have messaged you in the past - we cracked at 11m - but couldn't face it on our own, so got help in. I was SO so reluctant, but as Molly says you can start to hear different cries - eg crossness - why aren't you sorting this out for me mummy - and knowing when to go in - little snowboarder did better on his own - if I went in it generally made things worse - some obv like hh's little one do better with more immediate reassurance. ANyway...I just wanted to say don't discount getting some help. It is most certainly the best ?500 we ever spent....

[Yorkie]

Helena, that's a variation on what I do to get her too sleep at nightime actually (failed attempt at sleep lady shuffle technique, still stuck on the chair!) so that may be a gentler approach. I think it so much depends on your mental health at the time asleep. My desperation has coincided with a shocking week at work (stress over workload and new boss plus personnel issues and direct criticism of me in an exit interview, ugh) so am feeling like a failure on all fronts at the mo :(

& Molly, you're right about the flat issue although if it's a week of pain to get months of peace maybe they'll forgive. I do hear the guy above move when she is on a screaming meltdown and am grateful I never see him at the entrance.

Thanks all, v useful to hear your stories. I think drastic action is probably req'd as she's a v strong willed girl (er, no comment) and we have been v soppy in our approach if I'm honest. But you live & learn eh.

However have had Dominios for tea & halfway through a bottle of Co-Op's lovely fairtrade Pinot Grigio so not all bad!

[Yorkie]

yes Snowboarder, I posted 6 months ago about back-to-work stress/sleep/mananging while OH did childcare an

d you sent me a msg then. Both you and Ruth had done the CC recently, and I really remember both of your postings on the subject. And I do reflect often on the fact that both of you now have sleeping boys and another one on the way whilst I haven't moved on. Still, this too will pass. Will repeat to self. I must to bed. TFI Friday X

[Ruth_Baldock]

Yorkie: We live in a flat and our neighbours hear EVERYTHING. When we were going to sleep train, I warned them. They've got 3 kids, trained each of them, so were very understanding and said an hour of moaning at7pm was better than the screeching they heard between 10pm-4am every night for nine months...

[nozchik]

We had sleepless nights for 6 month no sleep at all. He slept on my hand or me rocking him on my legs for 6 month and that was it i looked like zombi. Then my dear friend told me about CC and i told my DH and we decided to give it a go. First night was horrible he screamed for and hour and half, second night for an hour, third night 20 minute who-la done now i put him to bed at 7pm and he wake ups and 3am for feed and 7am for a day. Day naps improved dramatically as well, 2 naps each for about an hour .

Good luck hope it works for you as well.

D.

[nunheadmum]

If you think you'd find it hard to do CC, maybe getting some professional help would make it easier. We did it with our youngest (we used night-nannies) and it was the best money we spent. Having someone who knows what they're doing hold your hand in the night, really, really helps. And having seen it all before, they'll help to pin down what the problem might be - if it isn't just that your LO is leading you a merry dance. They may even suggest a different approach if CC isn't something you can do.

I'd definitely recommend at least calling them for a chat to see if they could help.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Yorkie, yes, we did CC after MUCH erming and ahing on the subject, most of it documented on here.

I also think SB would also agree; no WAY would I have a little un on the way if Baby B's sleep hadn't been sorted. BEWARE though, the moment they start sleeping through...the broodiness starts. Seb started sleeping through on the 18th September. I became pregnant on the 21st October.

Watch out!

Seriously though, I feel for you. You're a saint, there is no way I'd be able to do what you've done for 18 months. You've done really well. FWIW, the moment he started sleeping properly, everything else improved- mainly his eating, he'd been a terrible eater but got much better with more sleep, and was better at interacting with other children. Probably because he felt half human for once!

[Yorkie]

ah yes Ruth, I remember! I would like another at some point but I think I'd like a wee rest first.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks everyone for your supportive posts. If we do decide to bite the bullet and CC it I'll be back for moral support. She has still woken the last few nights but Daddy's back on duty and has been co-sleeping in her room and I then feed at 5/6. Not solving anything long term of course but at least I feel slightly less like a woman on the verge of a nervous breakdown.