Rabbit fur coat discussion.

[zeban]

What veges here have said they'ld wear fur? If you mean me I said I'd buy vintage fur but NEVER new fur because to me there is a huge difference. If you think that's 'hypocritical' of me that's up to you. At least I have some values. Very typical of those that have none to cry hypocrisy on those that are still trying to do something. Life isn't black and white and I don't go around criticising other people for their personal choices. As it goes I've never actually bought any vintage fur and was arguing against people's very harsh criticisms of the lady selling her vinatge fur coat.

Calves are killed for meat, they're not a bi-product of the dairy industry. They wouldn't be killed for meat if people didn't eat meat whether their Mum's/Sister's produced milk or not.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Zeban - you are seeing anti-vegitarian sentiment where little exists. By adopting such a rigid stance I suspect more people will wade in on "the vegetarian thing" when all that's been said until now is a few mild jokes when talking about the hypocrisy of meat eaters (not vegetarians)

And claiming YOU have values and hinting that others don't is a bit much..

"At least I have some values. Very typical of those that have none to "

[zeban]

Ok, my post was a very defensive response to Rosie's post which I clearly didn't read properly so apologies for that. Silly jokes on interesting debates do annoy me though but you're right that they were more to do with the hypocrisy of meat eaters than vegetarians so apologies again. Really didn't want to start a whole vegetarian debate :-S

@ Pearson- they would be farmed to be killed so they'ld still be endangered! Keeping an animal from extinction is about appreciating the animal for their place in the world, alive, not seeing them alive only to be killed again purely for human consumption/use. Animals do not exist on this planet just so we can use and abuse them and then 'breed' more when we've killed them off. Many species were here before we were and have an important role to play in the natural food chain.

[DulwichFox]

Many Rabbits Killed for Food are Shot.

When carried out by Skilled Hunters this will mainly be instant.

You cannot shoot Rabbits for Fur for obvious reasons.

These animals will be Gassed or Poisoned or Internally electrocuted. (Their meat cannot be eaten.)

Also they will be extensively farmed and live in pretty bad conditions.

They will be Killed at 20 weeks.

For a average size/length coat takes about 30 rabbits.

[Narnia]

Oh......who 'put' them here?

[zeban]

Narnia, I'm not religious in case you're checking! Just edited the above to word it properly.

[Loz]

zeban Wrote:

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> At least I have some values.

I tried vegetarianism once. Could never quite get the hang of balancing the chips on both my shoulders at the same time.

[zeban]

Oh jeez Loz, I wasn't even talking about being a vegetarian there. I was talking about having a stance on not killing animals PURELY for their fur. I was saying people kill animals for to eat, so use all of it instead of killing more animals just for fur. I got defensive because I thought I was taking quite a sensible approach to this debate but there were still silly jokes made.

I'm actually vegetarian mostly for health reasons and money reasons- it's cheaper not to buy meat because if I bought it I'd want to buy organic which is expensive and something I can't afford. I also think it isn't great for my health. That's a personal choice though.

I'll just remind you of your joke though Loz 'If a steak restaurant cook and serve steak and a fish restaurant cook and serve fish, why don't vegetarian restaurants cook and serve vegetarians?'- Chip on my shoulder or chip on your shoulder?

[Loz]

zeban Wrote:

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> I'll just remind you of your joke though Loz 'If a

> steak restaurant cook and serve steak and a fish

> restaurant cook and serve fish, why don't

> vegetarian restaurants cook and serve

> vegetarians?'- Chip on my shoulder or chip on your

> shoulder?

Passing grammatical punnery on my part. What's that got to do with chips on anybody's shoulders??

I'd say you are starting to flounder a bit here, zeban, but you'd probably try to take offence on behalf of fish everywhere...

[zeban]

Oh Loz

[Pearson]

Zeban flounder?

This simply isn't the right Plaice to be talking about fish.

Way too much carping on about fur though!!

You can trawl the net, it's all here.

[LadyDeliah]

I think the male calves of dairy cows are often killed within days of their birth and used for dogfood. I don't think they are used to feed people. I may be wrong, but I think I remember seeing a documentary on this sometime last year.

[zeban]

I've just been reading about this, it does seem the calves often end up as veal or after a few years pet food. I didn't realise this although it is quite obvious. So the milk industry and veal industry are inextricably linked.

There do seem to be a few things being done to try to make dairy farming more ethical:

'Here at Compassion in World Farming we have been working with the RSPCA, on the Beyond Calf Exports Stakeholder Forum bringing together key stakeholders to find economically viable solutions to the exporting or shooting of male diary calves. Part of this forum looks at using dual purpose breeds, who?s male calves can be reared on for beef. You can find out more about this on our website at http://www.ciwf.org.uk/what_we_do/calves/beyond_calf_exports.aspx.

We also launched our Calf Life - Wanted not Wasted campaign in August 2009 aimed at encouraging individuals that already buy veal and restaurants who serve veal to switch to higher welfare British Rosa veal. Find out more at http://www.ciwf.org.uk/what_we_do/calves/calf_life.aspx.

there are options for the compassionate shopper...

Soil Association organic rules prevent farmers from exporting their calves. So their calves will not be going to the continent to be reared for veal; however, Soil Association farmers may be shooting some calves at birth because there is not enough of a market for them.

A good solution would be if they raise their male dairy calves for beef or veal in the UK. UK veal is produced to higher welfare standards than in the EU. Buying British beef and veal will help develop markets so that calves can be reared in the UK.

Other organic standards do not appear to prevent farmers exporting their calves or shooting them at birth.

Some supermarkets are working to find humane alternatives to calf exports. For example, M&S has explicitly advised its dairy farmers not to export their calves and is working with them and with others to identify a humane and ethical alternative. If you buy milk from a supermarket you can write to them and ask them what their milk suppliers are doing with their male dairy calves.

Also look out milk from more sustainable breeds of cow such as Dairy Shorthorn and Ayrshire (for instance Duchy Originals milk) which do not have the same problems as black and white dairy cows.

So in buying dairy milk you may well be contributing to the live export of calves, unless you choose:

(a) Soil Association milk

(b) A retailer with their own sustainable supply chains

© Milk from sustainable breeds.

Also try reading about http://www.goodveal.com/ and you can see information on our appeal here:

http://www.ciwf.org/home/nov05appeal.shtml

[aquarius moon]

I haven't participated in this discussion so far, but it has got to the stage where I really want to say something.

I voiced my opinion already, on the original 'rabbit fur coat for sale' ad, only to have my post deleted shortly after, when I wasn't being abusive. or offensive, just giving my opinion.

The way I see it, if you feel passionate about something in life, then make your feelings known.

Animals are my passion.

I do not eat meat or fish,

or wear leather or fur.

I cannot understand people who say they love animals, but are prepared to eat them and wear their skins.

They kind of 'like' animals, eg dogs, cats, pets etc. but are not true animal lovers.

Nobody actually needs to eat meat/wear animal skins. We can all survive without it.

I read a post recently from someone, who is under the false impression that animals don't feel emotions, such as pain

and fear, especially when they know their life is about to end.

Every living creature feels these emotions.

Watch the following video, & see if you still feel the same. (animal lovers, be warned, it's pretty upsetting)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUkHkyy4uqw

And while we are on the subject of abattoirs, if you have a strong stomach, go to youtube, and click on 'The slaughter of a sentient being'.

Tell me that this is not cruel & that the cows feel nothing.

There are always a few posters on here, ready to shoot me down as soon as I open my mouth (usually the same ones, I might add), a couple who have added comments to this thread already.

And it wasn't actually me who brought up the topic of vegetarianism/animal welfare (for once!)

As always, I will continue to be a voice for the animals, and speak for them, when it is needed.

[SeanMacGabhann]

"I voiced my opinion already, on the original 'rabbit fur coat for sale' ad, only to have my post deleted shortly after, when I wasn't being abusive. or offensive, just giving my opinion. "

As was pointed out at the time, the for sale section isn't the place for ethical debate. Yours was one of several posts removed so don't feel so hard done by

Why are you banging on about people shooting you down on this thread?

[mockney piers]

"As always, I will continue to be a voice for the animals"

Are you Johnny Morris reincarnate?

[aquarius moon]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "I voiced my opinion already, on the original

> 'rabbit fur coat for sale' ad, only to have my

> post deleted shortly after, when I wasn't being

> abusive. or offensive, just giving my opinion. "

>

> As was pointed out at the time, the for sale

> section isn't the place for ethical debate. Yours

> was one of several posts removed so don't feel so

> hard done by

>

> Why are you banging on about people shooting you

> down on this thread?

Not on this thread specifically, but whenever I speak for the animals (which I do, quite frequently on here)

[aquarius moon]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> "As always, I will continue to be a voice for the

> animals"

>

> Are you Johnny Morris reincarnate?

And comments like these are a good example!!

[zeban]

I agree that I didn't think it wasn't fair to start an ethical debate on the sales section. Hence why this one has been created- perhaps you could have done that rather than have a pop at the poster trying to sell something.

You're clearly very passionate Aquarius Moon, and you're very good at taking your beliefs all of the way, and I think that's great. Maybe I'm not as dedicated as you but I make choices on some things regarding animal rights. In this debate I feel vintage fur is ok. I'm assuming you don't but I do think it's interesting to have a range of opinions on these matters. No one is trying to shoot anyone down, it seems to be quite a healthy debate despite a few jokes!

[Pearson]

"Nobody actually needs to eat meat"

Except your friends, like Mr Bear who loves Salmon, Mrs Tiger love buffalo and Zebra.

Thomas the cat love Jerry the mouse...

My point simply is that eating meat is as natural to some species as eating grass is to others.

[mockney piers]

Of? It's hardly shooting down, just light-hearted banter. Morris was my hero growing up.

I'd have been proud of that association. Loz, order of chips please...

[Loz]

Sure thing, MP. Would you like a large slab of dead animal with that? I've got some panda out back.

[mockney piers]

Ooh, just spotted this

At least I have some values. Very typical of those that have none to cry hypocrisy..blah..blah

Wow, very revealing indeed. You've just elevated your position to that of dogmatic religious zealot, and thus negated any possibility of rational argument. Oh dear.

[Narnia]

Why? Surely current day fur will become vintage in time?

[zeban]

Ok, just to clear something up:

'Vintage clothing is a generic term for new or second hand garments originating from a previous era.Generally speaking, clothing which was produced before the 1920s is referred to as antique clothing and clothing from the 1920s to 1980s is considered vintage.' Wikipedia.

Vintage is not just another term for second hand as some seem to think it is. Talk to vintage buyers, they go and source their clothes from far and wide and can tell you which era the fur they're selling is from. Fur made now isn't necessarily going to end up being vintage- you'll probably have to talk to costume designers/vintage buyers to get accurate info but fur was much more popular in the 20th Century than the 21st Century which is where most vintage coats come from and will continue to come from.

Those who were furious at the woman for selling a vintage coat were furious at a 20+ year coat. I think if you want to get angry about animal rights issues then deal with practices that are going on now. I realise some fur is still used in the fashion industry now which I think is outrageous but then target those shops instead of shouting down an easy target on the internet.