Why are motorcyclists not allowed in all of Southwark's bus lanes?

[DulwichLondoner]

As per the subject. The fact that motorcycles are only allowed in some of the bus lanes is extremely confusing and, frankly, defies logic. Either it's safe or it's not. It cannot be safe on one road and become immediately dangerous after a few yards. For example, on Camberwell road, from Medlar street to Camberwell Green, motorcycles are not allowed. Carry on straight ahead, and, after Camberwell Green - surprise! - as soon as Denmark Hill starts motorcycles are allowed. However, most motorcyclists do not even know, because the sign is positioned so close to the Camberwell green bus stop that busses will almost always hide it from the sight of oncoming motorcyclists. My question is about Southwark because this is the East Dulwich Forum but the same applies throughout London.

Also, who decides these things? What exactly is decided by TFL and what by each council?

James Barber, do you know? I believe you mentioned in another discussion a while back that some cyclist association was against sharing bus lanes because of some report that would point to increased risks - do I remember correctly? Do you still have that? TFL's conclusions are radically different: https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2011/december/motorcycles-to-be-allowed-permanent-access-to-bus-lanes

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/motorcycles-in-bus-lanes-report.pdf

[Earl Aelfheah]

Red routes are under the control of TfL others, Southwark. I agree they should all be open to motorcycles.

[ruffers]

Agree it's a shambles. Motorcycles are part of the solution to traffic congestion in London and should be taken more into account.

As an example from next week Bank junction will be buses and bicycles only, why not motorbikes?

(That whole plan is ludicrous btw)

[Proj London Health]

I believe Mayor Johnson made all bus lanes free for m/bikes. Stickers petrol stations etc....

Then, after a couple of m/cycle protests in central London gridlocking various parts, I also believe that on this basis it all returned back to as before. I use to ride through one of the shortest bus lanes near Tulse Hill and one day that unexpected ticket came through.

McCabe

[macutd]

The bus lane going up Dog Kennel Hill past Sainsbury is dangerous. It forces me on my scooter into the single lane that has no overtaking.

I was going up last week and was being honked by a car behind that wanted me to move over. I had nowhere to go!

If only I could use the bus lane I could be safe. (I have a 50 cc scooter which only gets up to 25 mph max up that hill)

[DulwichLondoner]

Proj London Health Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I believe Mayor Johnson made all bus lanes free

> for m/bikes.

? I'm not following: you're saying that at one point all bus lanes were free for motorbikes, but then the decision was reversed? The decision would never be the Mayor's entirely - some routes are controlled by local councils.

>

> Then, after a couple of m/cycle protests in

> central London gridlocking various parts, I also

> believe that on this basis it all returned back to

> as before.

What protests? When was this?

[DulwichLondoner]

@macutd, I honestly believe 50cc scooters are dangerous in general, let alone uphill: they are simply not powerful enough to accelerate away from a dangerous situation.

[rendelharris]

It may surprise you to know, DL, that as a cyclist I'm completely happy to share bus lanes with motorcylists and agree that they should be opened up London-wide. The nature of motorcycling means that riders are aware that any incident with a cyclist is likely to cause as much (more expensive) damage to their machine and themselves as to the cyclist and act with according caution, I can count the problems I've had with poor motorcylist behaviour in nearly four decades of London cycling on the fingers of one hand. Let 'em in!

[DulwichLondoner]

@rendelharris, I believe this is the second time we happen to be in agreement. This calls for celebratory drinks! :)

[first mate]

Presumably that must apply to cyclists too ( edited to say in response to comment on dangers of 50cc uphill).

As an aside, roadworthy mobility scooters (max speed 12 mph) are disbarred from using bus lanes or cycle lanes and cannot go more than 4 mph on pavement (no argument with the latter, obviously).

[PeckhamRose]

I wrote to TfL and Southwark Council about this and at Community Councils asked about this. At one point when Mayor Johnson came in, he agreed the evidence (of tests on four major roads out of London, which Ken Livingstone refused to agree to because he was under pressure from the cycling lobbies while Boris ignored them and went on evidence from the trials) and made bus lanes open to us bikers. The London Cycling Campaign or whatever it is hated this although there was no carnage. But then along came a situation even worse than before where bus lanes are wiped out at major areas like Oval Kennington where the busses are in one lane with cars and bikes, whilst cyclists have an entire lane to themselves. This was ridiculous since bus lanes should be allowed to remain whether they accept bikers or not.

Some councils around London and the rest of the country allow bikes in bus lanes. I believe Richmond does and much of Westminster, but get this: In Newham, signs on the road allow bikers to join cyclists at the head of the queues at traffic lights (can't remember the official name of that bit of road). Now most of us do that anyway. I do. And so I asked a police sgt once, that since Newham had set a precedent on this, would the police do us for doing this. He said he was a biker, he did it out of uniform, and since Newham officially allowed it he did not know of any officer who would bother with bikers who join cyclists at the section at the traffic lights.

Are we all members of the Motorcycle Action group? Then join. They lobby successfully against lots of crazy ideas the govt has regarding motorcycling. But do all keep hassling Southwark.

[DulwichLondoner]

Yes, I am a member of the Motorcycle Action Group and of the BMF.

[kford]

Some non-tfl, non-red route roads allow, but not enough. It's a mess. DKH should be clear to use, as should Walworth Road.

[Penguin68]

There is a strong argument for consistency of treatment across London - confusion and uncertainty has to be a contributory cause of accidents (as does enforced lane changing from an inner to an outer lane, especially for low powered scooters etc.)

Personally I am not sure that high powered bikes really need special treatment - and some can be sufficiently wide, with panniers, to potentially block bus traffic, presumably an issue with bus lanes, but it would make sense to me at least for all unpowered and sub 50cc powered two-wheelers to have full access to bus lanes throughout London, TfL managed or not.

And I wouldn't object if all bikes could use them. However, I do find, in traffic, that jinking and lane changing by bikes (powered and unpowered) is dangerous - it is much more difficult (if you are in a four wheeler) to keep track of what two wheelers (who move in an out of blind spots) are doing behind you, if in traffic, when you need also to be looking ahead carefully.

[DulwichLondoner]

@Penguin68,

a small 125 scooter like the SH 125 is ca. 67cm wide.

Most motorcycles are ca. 75 to 90cm wide.

A big touring bike, like the BMW R1200 RT ( https://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/en/models/tour/r1200rt.html ), arguably not the best commuter, is ca. 1 metre wide with both panniers. This is the bike most police officers use, but with bespoke, less wide panniers.

I'm not sure what you mean by blocking a bus lane. Even a bicycle could block a bus lane, in the sense that there are situations where it is not safe for a bus to overtake a bicycle (narrow lane, traffic jame in the opposite direction, not enough room to overtake safely). The difference is that busses do not typically need to overtake scooters and motorcycles - unless it's a small 50cc scooter which struggles uphill. By the way, just looking around it is easy to see there are very, very few 50cc scooters in London.

I agree that the lack of consistency is a source of confusion, and I also agree that two-wheelers changing lanes irresponsibly are a source of potential danger (I am always amazed at how aggressive some fellow riders are in their filtering), but that's not going to change much whether access to bus lanes is allowed or not.

[nunhead_man]

macutd said "I have a 50 cc scooter which only gets up to 25 mph max up that hill"

If you did you would be breaking the speed limit

[DulwichLondoner]

Yes, the 20mph limits are another great scheme. Rushed through most of London before the Department for Transport could complete its 3-year study on the matter, presented as a panacea even though evidence in support is scarse if not non-existent, it basically forces motorists to spend more time looking at the speedometer than at the road (will I be fined if I am at 23 mph instead of 20? Let me break a bit, now it's 19, no, wait, it's 23 again, aaargh!), plus it increases journey times (and therefore pollution) in those circumstances (eg outside of rush hour) where there would be an actual chance of reaching 30mph every now and then.

[Penguin68]

I'm not sure what you mean by blocking a bus lane. Even a bicycle could block a bus lane, in the sense that there are situations where it is not safe for a bus to overtake a bicycle (narrow lane, traffic jams in the opposite direction, not enough room to overtake safely).

Two tourers travelling together (they often do - not commuting but touring) has the same width profile as a small car. Bus Lanes are dedicated to buses to allow free moving public transport. Of course bikes (like cars) can travel faster than buses, but if the logic is to have bus lanes then the logic should exclude private vehicles from them (as some do even for e.g. taxis, which are still public transport). I'm sure that bikes can use bus lanes properly (as can my car) - but the logic, and the law, says bus lanes are for public transport. (Some) two wheelers are an exception. Buses are held up when they can't proceed. We are (generally) happy for pedal bikes to do that (block them), because there are more over-riding reasons why they should use these lanes. This isn't so for reasonably high powered motor bikes and scooters.

[rendelharris]

I was once told - and I have no idea how true this is - by a (motorcycle) copper that one of the big reasons for letting bikes in and not cars is that a broken-down car can't always be moved (e.g. one with a locked transmission) without heavy machinery whereas a motorbike (assuming it's not a Goldwing!) can always be lifted out by two or three strong people if there's a problem. Also you're looking at width, but being able to overtake bikes is not a problem - no biker is going to be going slower than a bus, with all its stops - it's length of space taken up that causes jams. Fifteen bikes, say, can line up three abreast in a lane and not take up more than about fifty feet or so at traffic lights. Add that to their ability to pull away much, much faster and they're not going to be holding up a bus behind. Fifteen cars are going to occupy about 240 feet and pull away slower, much more likely, for example, to prevent a bus making the light while still on green.

Anecdotally in many, many years of cycling and motorcycling in London (ETA and riding on buses) I don't think I've ever seen a motorcycle holding up a bus.

[DulwichLondoner]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Two tourers travelling together (they often do -

> not commuting but touring) has the same width

> profile as a small car.

I have never seen two tourers travelling together in a London bus lane.

Anyway, a single motorcycle travelling in the middle of the lane occupies almost as much space as a small car. However, that's not the point. That's totally irrelevant. The point is that, when traffic comes to a halt, motorcycles, even large ones, take little to no space, because they can and do occupy gaps among cars. That is why motorcycles cause little to no congestion at all! Add to this all the other observations by rendelharris.

Bus lanes are for public transport, yes. But allowing motorcycles in bus lanes does not cause any inconvenience to other road users, not even to busses, so it's a win-win for all (apart from a minority of motorcycle-hating cyclists).

Also, as rendelharris pointed out: when was the last time you saw a bus held up by a group of motorcycles? I have never seen one in my life!

PS Of course all of this applies if the lanes are of a normal width. The geniuses at TFL narrowed down a number of roads with the explicit intent of making filtering harder. Initially they denied it, but the Motorcycle Action Group forced them to admit as much. This is perverse, because this worsens congestion without creating nay benefit.

[bobbsy]

For anyone interested: Bank junction closure survey link below:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/bankonsafety

[titch juicy]

I'd support more access for motorcycles if they'd stay out of cycle lanes and cycle boxes at junctions.

The cycle lane at the top of London Bridge going north is a nightmare in the mornings for being clogged up with motorcycles.

[DulwichLondoner]

-- moved topic --

[ruffers]

A sensible solution would be an area for motorbikes at the front of the lights. Making them sit behind bicycles when they accelerate more quickly is a recipe for conflict, given that in the training bikers get we are told to "make progress" and filter to the front.

[malumbu]

Should'nt be allowed full stop - a popularist move by Boris, and I resonded to the consultation. Nor electric cars. And this is from someone who rode motorbikes for a long time in central London and is a supporter of electric cars. As a cyclist I used to note a pecking order in ability from motorbike (best) to scooter to cabbies doing the knowledge (worst). Doesn't seem so pronounced nowadays.

My commmute on motorbike from Havering to SW1 in the late 80s is for another thread. It was like war out there!

Why the comment motorbike hating cyclists? We all have to get on together and generally do.