A prime minister to answer what?

[Tarot]

That was interesting D.J.K.Q.

I think Osama Bin Laden is dead too,

There has been no clear videos of him,

With a big beard it could be anyone,but I suppose they would have to keep the pretence of him being alive,he was pretty sick wasnt he, These kind of people are ,Tutivillus types, and are better gone.

Sean I wish I had her money.

Huncamunca a diplomat, me no I always stick my daisy root in, eventually.

[DJKillaQueen]

Yes he had some serious health problems that required daily medication. If an air strike didn't get him then it's quite possible his general ill health did. I think if he were alive we'd have seen video after video of him. They've tried lookalikes. Why do that unless he's dead?

On Tony B though....we've had so many inquiries that there really is nothing to be gained from yet another one imo.

[Bluerevolution]

This isn't a new enquiry though, new information has been brought to light that makes the deciscion to go to war dubious.

Main reason at the time WMD's and that Iraq could launch a missile that could hit Britain in 45 minutes. which is totally bogus.

The WMDs (weapons of mass destruction) ie nerve agents, saron gas, anthrax, botulism and more. was supplied to Saddam by the US and UK in the 80's when he was "our friend". Security services knew full well that Iraq didn't have the infrastructure to re-create these weapons and that by 2002 the shelf life would have expired by a long time and thus render them inert

[taper]

'The WMDs (weapons of mass destruction) ie nerve agents, saron gas, anthrax, botulism and more. was supplied to Saddam by the US and UK in the 80's when he was our friend'

Any evidence for that?

[Huguenot]

I think the France and Italy both provided the nuclear equipment that Israel claimed were being used to manufacture weapons material. Loads of countries sent bits and bobs because it was viewed as peaceful at the time.

It was also claimed that France provided the core biological seeds for bio-weapons development, and Italy, Spain, China and Egypt provided the (empty) warheads.

The US sent anthrax, West Nile virus and botulism go Iraq.

Eqypt, Luxembourg and Singapore sent either nerve gases or their ingredients.

The Brits supplied equipment through Matrix Chruchill - remember the supergun anyone?

[Keef]

'The WMDs (weapons of mass destruction) ie nerve agents, saron gas, anthrax, botulism and more. was supplied to Saddam by the US and UK in the 80's when he was our friend'

Any evidence for that?

It's not like he's just made that up out of nowhere.

Arming Iraq: A Chronology of U.S. Involvement

[taper]

Companies from the US and UK certainly provided "bits and bobs", but the countries that provided over 90% of Iraq's weapons (including WMDs) were Russia, China and France.

So "The WMDs was (sic) ... supplied .. by the UK and US" is not accurate.

[Bluerevolution]

Cheers Keef, taper have a read of this

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q5bFdpNNB5IC&printsec=frontcover&dq=neil+mackay&source=bl&ots=wOf0sxUwmi&sig=CW8uxZBtNV6MB_qt5Phs515Sl14&hl=en&ei=PXc1TeOlNo6whQerhoXSCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAzha#v=onepage&q&f=false

especially from pg 19 onwards

[Magpie]

The rationale for the invasion of Iraq is interesting. I imagine that the reality is that the decision was driven by some combination of Oil, WMD, failure in Gulf War I and the supposed terrorist threat. Having read the Andrew Rawnsley book on the Blair years, his view is that TB felt that having stood up so publicly to support GB, and having formed such a strong relationship, he couldn't back down from going to war with GB. Also Rawnsley comments that the US government couldn't understand why Saddam would bluff - he refused to deny he had WMD, and let in the UN inspectors very late in the day, when the momentum for war was already un-stoppable. It was a mis-calculation on Saddam's part (used to Clinton's sanctions and air strikes approach) as to how far the US would go, as much as anything that led to the invasion.

[Emerson Crane]

If my memory serves me aright, and it is a failing memory I possess, wasn't Saddam Hussein fully backed by both the UK and US at one point. Thus making an illegal invasion of Iraq a tad hypocritical to say the least. Not that I condoned for a moment what he did, but the US and UK are not entirely squeaky clean in this matter.

[Bluerevolution]

Magpie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The rationale for the invasion of Iraq is

> interesting. I imagine that the reality is that

> the decision was driven by some combination of

> Oil, WMD, failure in Gulf War I and the supposed

> terrorist threat. Having read the Andrew Rawnsley

> book on the Blair years, his view is that TB felt

> that having stood up so publicly to support GB,

> and having formed such a strong relationship, he

> couldn't back down from going to war with GB.

> Also Rawnsley comments that the US government

> couldn't understand why Saddam would bluff - he

> refused to deny he had WMD, and let in the UN

> inspectors very late in the day, when the momentum

> for war was already un-stoppable. It was a

> mis-calculation on Saddam's part (used to

> Clinton's sanctions and air strikes approach) as

> to how far the US would go, as much as anything

> that led to the invasion.

Magpie, I take it you've never heard of Operation Rockingam? No, not many folk have.

"Operation Rockingham cherry-picked intelligence. It received hard data, but had a preordained outcome in mind. It only put forward a small percentage of the facts when most were ambiguous or noted no WMD... It became part of an effort to maintain a public mindset that Iraq was not in compliance with the inspections. They had to sustain the allegation that Iraq had WMD [when] Unscom was showing the opposite."

For example, Ritter claimed, Rockingham would leak false information to weapons inspectors but then use the inspections as evidence for WMD: "Rockingham was the source of some very controversial information which led to inspections of a suspected ballistic missile site. We ... found nothing. However, our act of searching allowed the US and UK to say that the missiles existed."

Ritter alleged that "Operation Rockingham" assumed a central role within the UK intelligence system in building the case that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities constituted a threat to the UK and the US.

[DJKillaQueen]

I think that once the neo-cons were in power it wouldn't have mattered what Saddam said (bluff or otherwise). Saddam had very good reason to bluff, but not for the US and the UN, but for Iran, in which it had bankrupted itself after a war that the West equally had a dubious hand in - supplying arms to BOTH sides...hence the end of any friendly relationship Saddam thought he had with the West.

The Unvasion of Kuwait was precipated by the poor economic condition of Iraq after that war...along with sanctions and the fear that Iran, growing in strength might try another war, one that Iraq would have had a real risk of losing. Even the loss of the southern shi-ite area of Iraq would have been disastrous, not only because of the loss of oil fields there, but also because it would have cut her off from access to the sea routes of the Persian Gulf.

We can not keep interfering in these countries and then sanction them into submission when things don't go our way. Nuclear capability for these countries is seen as their only way out of the manipulation and bullying that America and the UN subjects these countries to. Pakistan is a very good example of that. But at the same time, the arms trade, which the West does very nicely out of, relies on these countries, run by military dictators for the bulk of it's sales. Totally hypocritical to the core.

[Bluerevolution]

DHkq, Bush and his neo-con cronies had decided to invaded Iraq BEFORE they were in power.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1221.htm

If you get the chance look at the document

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

[DJKillaQueen]

I know. That's my point. I was aware of the document 'Rebuilding America's Defenses - Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century' shortly after it was published as a then neo-conservative think tank policy. Makes you wonder how different things would have been if Al Gore had succeeded in proving that the Florida elections were corrupt.

[Bluerevolution]

Indeed it does

[Tarot]

So everyone had a finger in the pie.I see now why these things have to be scrutinised, I remember the supergun H,

didnt a lorry driver get arrested.

I must say I was never convinced about the death of Mr Kelly.

[taper]

The McCanns did it.

[Magpie]

"The McCanns did it" Quite.

An article written by a thinktank is hardly evidence that invasion would have occured regardless. The focus of the Bush administration changed decisively after 9/11 away from domestic matters, and onto foreign affairs. If there had been no 9/11, then i doubt there would have been an invasion of Iraq, nor would there have been a military operation in Afghanistan.

The US and UK were not supporters of Saddam, he was simply preferred to the Iranians - he relied far more on the Russians for military support.

[Bluerevolution]

Magpie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "The McCanns did it" Quite.

>

> An article written by a thinktank is hardly

> evidence that invasion would have occured

> regardless. The focus of the Bush administration

> changed decisively after 9/11 away from domestic

> matters, and onto foreign affairs. If there had

> been no 9/11, then i doubt there would have been

> an invasion of Iraq, nor would there have been a

> military operation in Afghanistan.

>

> The US and UK were not supporters of Saddam, he

> was simply preferred to the Iranians - he relied

> far more on the Russians for military support.

Live in your bubble, Murdoch and his media empire has certainly got you under his thumb

[mockney piers]

I think DJQK nailed it, she's obviously been speaking to my friend Yossarian.

It was those damned Assyrians.

Had we not invaded, first stop would have been the Hittites, then they'd have threatened the Greek city states, next they would have asked us for their bas-reliefs back!!!

Bombing's too good for them I say.

[taper]

'live in bubble...'

Did you get Manufacturing Consent for Christmas per chance?

[huncamunca]

If you can be arsed, then watch the power of nightmares - fantastic ( if selective ) well researched set of documentaries.

The cynic may argue that the dissapation of a strong bogeyman figure was dificult for the American Psyche - the removal of the Ebloc Commie menance had a big impact & new hate figures needed to be found.Fidel impotent, Khomeni gone...time for a new paradigm.

I think to say it was about Oil is simplifying things, it was more about influence in the region & obviously oil is the main driver in many ways - it was a readjustment of the Trueman doctrine to accomodate the post Ebloc world.

or maybe it is just the revised & updated manifestation of the international jewish conspiracy writ large. innit.

[Wilhelm]

Anyone fancy a pint?

[helena handbasket]

What about this?

1998 US Liberation Act - Bill Clinton

People often forget that Bill Clinton laid the groundwork, and I'm fairly certain he was not working with the Bush Republicans.

As always, more to the story......

[DJKillaQueen]

Yes absolutely.....it's not black and white and there are more than enough shady dealings if you dig deep enough from all administrations.

I do agree though that 9/11 presented the 'opportunity' looked for and without it the invasion would not have happened, but it was a gross mistruth by the Bush neo-con administration to use 9/11 as such. Remember how they confused their own population on that?

'The Power of Nightmares' was indeed a decent attempt (but agreeably selective) to simplify the historical complexity of the West's relatioship with the Middle-East.

Oh and right now....any mention of the McCanns strikes the fear of the forum into me lol !