Weaning breastfed baby before 6 months

[helena handbasket]

jollybaby Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I agree with srisky about the kings run breast

> feeding workshop. I was seething by the end of it.

> I couldn't believe that the phrase 'damage being

> done' was used to describe giving a baby one

> bottle of formula. This was not at all helpful in

> my opinion, and only likely to add to the stress

> felt by a new mum struggling to breast feed.

I absolutely agree with this and in fact am certain that if I was left to muddle through on my own without all of the "help and advice" we likely would have ridden off into the breast feeding sunset. As it was, I was told on a weekly basis that his latch was wrong etc etc etc and I actually convinced myself that I was such a crap mother I couldn't even properly do something as "natural" as breast feed. Four years on and it's still a highly emotive topic for me because I get so angry about all of the interference thinly veiled as help.

That said (and back on topic) ;-) I totally agree with what you're saying Fuschia and agree that we need to take these studies with a pinch of salt and consider the source. It's incredible that in this day and age new mothers are still falling over themselves trying to get it right and not getting reliable information. The media jumping on trends does not help matters.

When you are a new mother, who is REALLY on your side?

[Belle]

I agree it's good to know who's backing academics. But I'm guessing academics often need financial backing, and it's not always going to be from a quarter we feel comfortable with. When you look closely, sponsorship is behind so much, often not overtly - e.g. babycentre is I think backed by Johnson & Johnsons, yet I think does have a useful role providing information on infant development. I think as long as you know the provenance/full story of new reports/anything purporting to advise, you can then make an informed decision yourself.

[Saila]

to say that the doctors were somehow colluding with the formula milk companies to get a result that they 'want' is completely outrageous

when drug companies do clinical trials on their own drugs, do you think that they fudge the results?

if that was the case, wouldn't all trials succeed?

who funds the drug trials?

people need to be VERY careful when they dismiss a scientific trial data cos of how it was funded

What gets me is that more woman would probably feel able to bf for *longer* if they could add food as well (for a load of reasons already mentioned)

[Fuschia]

saila, there hasn't been any trial or new research. The article was basically based on picking out from the many many bits of research used by WHO etc, a small no where there are factors that barrant further investigation (like the allergy thing) and presenting it to the press as if it IS new research of some sort. Coincidentally just as the debate hots up re babyfood labelling (manufacturers have carried on stating foods are suitable from 4m and don't want to change)

And just to reiterate ...

"Three of the four authors of this study, Mary Fewtrell, Alan Lucas and David Wilson, receive funding from the baby food industry. Prof Lucas in particular plays a key role in advising the UK baby food industry, and has opposed the WHO recommendation for many years. In 2003 he went so far as to appear for the defence when one of the largest baby food companies, SMA Wyeth was successfully prosecuted for illegal advertising by Trading Standards. "

(babymilk action)

The bmj article confirms the authors receive funding from the babyfoo industry, it's not controversial, it's a known fact

[Fuschia]

This is a proper detailed analysis of the report and the studies to which it refers: http://www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/2011/01/starting-solids-facts-behind-todays.html?spref=fb

[Claire.Hobbs]

Whether a piece of research is funded or not does matter, as the financiers can/may decide not to publish the result...so who knows if the results would have been made public if the opposite was found? After all, nobody proofits financially from breastfed babies.

[Fuschia]

Claire.Hobbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Whether a piece of research is funded or not does

> matter, as the financiers can/may decide not to

> publish the result...so who knows if the results

> would have been made public if the opposite was

> found? After all, nobody proofits financially from

> breastfed babies.

Indeed. But there was no research anyway. The report just highlights findings of some old pieces of research, those which indicate 6m may not always be appropriate, ie in case of family allergy. (Hence the Kings trial omeone mentioned above, which is running to 2013 I believe - when those findings are out, there WILL be new research to consider)

The studies referenced re iron don't mean much... read the link I just posted to see more detail.

[Gussy]

Big fan of Analytical Armadillo's blog. Lots of good info on there, thanks for posting F.

[Saila]

Thanks F - i know this wasn't discussing a specific trial. This is an opinion piece calling for a scientific trial to be carried out

... Mary Fewtrell predicted this reaction and said that it's because of these breasting fanatics that people *aren't* even debating the issue of weaning age for fear of being attacked by the "breastfeeding evangelists"

attached is a very interesting 'reaction to the reaction' article - The Times

[anna_r]

This has come at an interesting time for me too. My daughter has just turned 5 months and is exclusively breastfed...not wholly by choice I might add, won't take a bottle! Anyway, I have been considering whether to start solids a couple of weeks before she is six months, the main reason being that I just feel so guilty when we all sit around the table (my husband, our other daughter and me). 5 month old literally stares at us all eating, almost salivating and tries to grab anything she can. She is 90th percentile weight and sitting up well in high chair and has never slept through so there are no sudden changes in sleep patterns to suggest she is not totally satisfied on milk...I just feel mean at mealtimes. Did others feel this way at around this age and did it influence your decision to wean early?

[anna_r]

I waited until 6 months with first daughter but don't remember her being quite this interested in our food, perhaps because she didn't have an older sister to watch??

[sophiechristophy]

were people above referring to the breastfeeding workshop at Kings run by Clare Kedves? If so i am really surprised that people were so offended by it!

i find the term 'breastfeeding fanatics' ridiculous - what purpose does it serve to vilify those who are actively trying to bring breastfeeding back as the norm when it comes to feeding babies? Look at the breastfeeding rates in the UK as opposed to other European countries such as Sweden and Norway. What can explain this?

Breastfeeding Rates Around the World

Country % of mothers who start % who continue 6 months or longer

Sweden 98 53

Norway 98 50

Poland 93 10

Canada 80 24

Netherlands 68 25

Britain 63 21

United States 57 20

Sources: Baby Milk Action, Cambridge, England; Center for Breastfeeding Information, Schaumburg, IL

[sophiechristophy]

anna_r - are you thinking of doing BLW? then you could just offer your daughter something on her tray at the mealtime, if she really is up for eating she can eat it, most likely she will just play with the food you offer her but at least you will feel that she can join in and she might feel more part of things?

[anna_r]

Hi sophie! I did the pur?e route with no. 1 but am thinking of doing more blw style for number 2. Ordered the book on amazon yesterday. However I thought you had to wait until 6 months to do BLW? I guess I will find out when I read it, but yes offering her a bit of broccoli at mealtimes might be the best answer.

[sophiechristophy]

with blw, the recommendation is to start from 6 months. However, there is often a considerable amount of 'play' when you first start, a lot of babies don't start actually really eating until 7/8months. So, i guess my thought is that as you are so near to 6 months, and as the baby would be able to decide what they actually did with the food and most likely wouldn't actually eat much if any at all (unlike spoon weaning where you know they are definitley ingesting the food from day 1), it could be a great option for you :)

[bluesuperted]

Not happy with the term breastfeeding fanatics at all - I am very pro-breastfeeding and becoming rapidly anti-formula companies (not anti-formula feeders, who am I to judge, every woman's situation and decision is unique). I think most pro-breastfeeding women are simply that, passionate about something they believe is completely normal (and amazing) but that lacks support and is often villified. It makes me so sad that people would rather turn against people trying to help than turn against massive multinationals with scandalous practices and ethics.

I also am surprised by the Kings experience reported; ED and Kings probreastfeeding stance is not representative of the rest of the UK and Claire and her team have been of immeasurable support to many round here, as have the caseloading midwife teams. Again I think these are examples of dedicated and passionate people, not those who are fanatics or mafioso.

Anna_r - the sibling aspect must add an interesting dynamic - while my litte one is consoled by gnawing on a rattle or wooden spoon in his highchair while the giants eat (despite being very interested with grabbing if near enough!) it must be a lot less clearcut to your little one when she is in the pecking order so to speak! Why is the other mini person getting involved etc?!

[bluesuperted]

Oh and Anna, pretty sure your little one meets all the recommended signs for baby led weaning already apart from the age and like Sophie says, she'd be getting involved but not ingesting masses so possible a nice compromise, you can look at my cookbook before your book arrives if you like - it summarises the main points of the theory at the beginning.

Oh and I don't know what it means when your baby was super overdue like ours?!

[laurac]

Hi Anna

Baby B exactly the same as your little one (91st centile and pretty much sitting up) and I weaned her at five months; she is enjoying her food immensely (much more so than my first daughter); it is actually quite terrifying the amount she seems to want to eat - any and everything offered, mashed or pureed! So am glad we started early as I don't think I could have held out with her eyeballing us mournfully at every meal for another month. I was keen to go with BLW this time and have tentatively tried her with a few bits of avocado and while I think negotiating picking food up and transferring it to mouths is a little bit beyond them so young, as Sophie says it could be a great distraction for your daughter and a good first step towards joining in with mealtimes. Am looking forward to being able to throw a variety of things on to B's tray and leaving her to it!

[EDmummy]

I am a little surprised at the amount of strong feeling expressed in this thread.

Absolutely breast is best but I hope that mothers aren't missing the needs of their children when they are ready for a mix of breast/bottle and solids because the mothers are determined to stick to some sort of doctrine.

We all love our children and want to do the absolute best for them. A lot of allergies are, unfortunately, hereditary. I come from a family of VERY allergic people so I was very frightened that my own children would inherit the long list of food allergies and asthma that most of my family have. Weaning them on to solids (whilst still breast feeding) at 4 months was incredibly scary for me because of the amount of adverse literature about at the time. Thankfully, it all turned out OK for us but the amount of pressure the literature puts on women is unacceptable. Equally unacceptable is the amount of pressure we put on ourselves. Having children is an incredibly long journey and I think we should all be accepting of the way we chose to take that journey.

[jollybaby]

Yes Sophie I was referring to those classes. I wasn't offended by the idea of promoting breastfeeding in the least. I am currently breast feeding my 3 1/2 month old daughter with no plan to stop in the near future. I was however incensed by the description of formula as being 'damaging'. We were told that if your baby had a single ounce of formula that it was too late 'the damage had been done' with the implication that the baby was destined to develop every allergy known to man. This was supported by a stream of anecdotes such as the one about a child developing a patch of eczema on the back of his leg - had been exclusively breast fed according to the mother - but oh no when the notes were reviewed the child had been given a bottle of formula on the postnatal ward - which of course was why the child had the skin condition. There is no doubt that the team at kings have worked hard and have done some great things such as setting up the Tongue tie service. I just think the choice of language was unhelpful and may add to the stress of establishing breast feeding. Ps I have never used the term breast feeding fanatic!

[sophiechristophy]

http://theleakyboob.com/2010/06/the-breast-is-best-debate-2/

Why do people think that 'solids' are more nourishing and filling than breast milk? the foods commonly used for spoon weaning, (and I am assuming that most people who would wean at 4-5 months would be spoon weaning not blw), are not nutritionally dense. Especially not compared to breastmilk/formula.

[Fuschia]

It is true though that the first feed of formula does affect the "virgin gut"

http://www.health-e-learning.com/articles/JustOneBottle.pdf

[helena handbasket]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is true though that the first feed of formula

> does affect the "virgin gut"

>

> http://www.health-e-learning.com/articles/JustOneB

> ottle.pdf

But see this is part of the problem. My son was just not latching on at all and my milk was nowhere to be seen. He was losing weight and turning a bit yellow and I knew he needed to eat and eliminate to get his system working. But how? What do you do when you are a new mother and watching your tiny baby needing to eat and rejecting your breast full stop? I knew about the first formula, knew it was a risk, didn't want to do it but seriously what on earth is a new mom in full panic supposed to do? I knew if I persisted it might work, but might not so how long do you sit and watch your newborn go downhill until you make a stand as a mother and say "to hell with all the judgement and rhetoric, I'm feeding my child!" It's not necessarily rational but it's certainly some surge of maternal instinct to get your new baby fed.

THIS is what drives women crazy, this presumption that if only you knew better or were stronger in your convictions or something.

Ah Fuschia, you and I have sparred on this plenty, you can tell I'm taking out my frustration on the wrong victim

hey?:)) Now if only I could find Gwen the breast feeding Nazi who should be the target for my grrrrrrr.

[helena handbasket]

BTW Gwen the breast feeding Nazi does not live or work in London so she is not you or someone you may know. :)-D

[jollybaby]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is true though that the first feed of formula

> does affect the "virgin gut"

>

> http://www.health-e-learning.com/articles/JustOneB

> ottle.pdf

Yes but this does not mean it is inevitable that any formula fed child will develop health complications as a result which is how it came across in our workshop.