What would you do differently?

[Maki]

Having just spent an age coaxing my 2 year old to go to sleep and knowing that she will wake up around 12pm and not go back to sleep until approx 5am, I am starting to wonder where we have gone wrong!! This mixed with my partner and I deciding to try for another baby in the next few months (when toddler starts sleeping again!) has meant I am questioning everything we have done for her and whether we would change anything with the next one, and I think the answer is 'yes, lots!'.

I think I would be a bit more open minded about trying to set a bit of a routine from the outset as I was very much totally baby led and I'm not sure this has been the most settling thing for our baby, although I also believe it depends upon personality. I would also not move house 3 times in 2 years as this has unsettled her, and i think I would also try and take a year off and make sure I can afford it rather than 9 months, and likewise with the numbers of days i work. I would desperatley try and reduce it to 3 days a week, and forgo an overseas holiday (and start shopping in Iceland!)

I would be really interested to hear what others may do differently, esp regarding parenting style. Having been very baby led and having a v good friend be very routine led and seeing such vastly different toddlers now, I am starting to question whether the Gina Ford route is really as 'selfish' as I thought initially, or whether it does actually lead to a more contented baby?? I don't mean to offend anyone, just fessing up on my own mistakes and uncertainties.

[chantelle]

I'd just say - don't be too hard on yourself. Every child is different so it's impossible to know if your toddler would be sleeping better if you'd done a few things differently.

That said, I am a big believer in routine - after the first 10 months or year, I don't think it really works for many children before that - and even 2 doesn't seem too late to get a strict bedtime routine going.

I did try variations on Gina Ford in the first 6 months or so and my son never took to it. He didn't even have a regular nap until around 8 months - god those first months were tough!

If I were to do things differently, I'd probably worry less about exclusive breastfeeding. I feel like I nearly killed myself to get enough milk in my son, who was underweight until he was on solids, when he went sharply up the chart centiles!

[Monkey]

I would take a much longer maternity leave and not just four months.

What I would not change though is the routine we put in place from when my daughter was about two weeks old and which includes bath at 6.00pm and lights out at 7.30pm come rain or shine. Gina Ford has lots of tips for bedtime routines for children of different ages so it's definitely not too late for your child.

All the best.

[corrie-may]

Did you try the 'cry it out' method at night? This worked wonders for all the babies I know that did it and usually only took a few nights (max) to work.

[Saffron]

Schedules don't work for Little Saff at all. Every baby is different. Some will thrive on a schedule, and some will be stifled by it.

The thing I would have done differently? ...i would have had a post-natal doula to help me settle in with the new baby. We couldn't afford it at the time (having just spent all our limited resources on our wedding and reception the day before Little Saff was born!). The other thing I would have done differently would have been to have Mr Saff put Little Saff down to sleep in the evening. This wasn't possible b/c of his work. So now, if I'm away he finds it very difficult to get Little saff to sleep (and he's not able to easily settle her in the night, so I always have to do it). This is not something we could have changed, so we have learned to live with it.

At the moment, having tried lots of conventional advice on sleep, we've taken to putting Little Saff to sleep around 10pm, after giving her a very active afternoon/evening. We've seen lots of improvement in her sleep.

Change the things you have control over, and accept the things you can't change. And don't beat yourself up too much!

xx

[Maki]

Thanks everyone for your replies. You are right I shouldn't be so hard on myself, but it gets to a point when you haven't slept for 3 hours in a row for a month that you start losing perspective!

Anyway, last night we cut our losses and decided to try her in a big bed and it was so wonderful putting her into it and seeing how excited and happy she was to go to bed and have stories and songs lying down, and after an hour of sitting by her she went to sleep. She did wake twice in the night and the first time it took her and hour and a half of me sitting by her to go to sleep, then my husband did the next wake up and was too tired and cold to sit by her so climbed in with her, and she went to sleep stright away.

We will start doing the gradual withdrawal method at the weekend. Does anyone have any practical advice on this method? Any positive experiences??

Corrie - May, we have done the controlled crying method, when she was 8 months old (we were referred to a sleep clinic it was so bad!) and actually she slept through after the 3rd night, but we have had to do it over and over again whenever anything changes, new tooth, a holiday, staying with friends etc etc, and each time it got harder and longer to work and now that she is able to talk and get out of her cot it's just not an option I feel we have anymore.

I think she has just always been a very light sleeper with the added problem of not being able to settle herself back to sleep.

Anyway, enough moaning. I had a lovely morning so far, had a lie in as Mr maki took her to nursery for once and I'm 'working' from home today!!

Tea time i think!

[alieh]

Hi Maki! So sorry you're having such a bad time but glad last night was even a tiny bit better.

I always find the Baby Whisperer Forums so helpful - like a sleep consultant but free! Here is a link to more information about gradual withdrawal and "walk in walk out" and how to choose: http://www.babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

And here are some links to success stories about sleep training for toddlers using both gradual withdrawal and walk in walk out strategies: http://www.babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=113089.0

Or you could post your own thread and I'm sure someone will hold your hand through it!

It seems it is a bad age for sleep generally (has been for us) but your situation does sound very extreme. I hope things keep getting better.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Maki,

I have had similair musings recently too. We have a routine/schedule for Seb, but it's no way set in stone (more rituals than timings- especially with the mealtime routines and bath/bed routine) so it's not GF by any means. It only really came to fruition when he was 8months+

What would I do differently? Chill! I exhausted myself thinking he HAD to sleep in his own cot and HAD to not have a dummy. If I had accepted that baby needed to co-sleep (better for all of us, especially as he was partial to lots of night-time milky snacks) and just given him the damn dummy earlier, I'd have been a lot more relaxed. Also, I CONVINCED myself his terrible sleep was forever. It wasn't. I am surprised I didn't lose my hair/have a nervous breakdown worrying myself over everything, although it's easy to say that in hindsight!

[Fuschia]

Learn that most things are a phase...

[womanofdulwich]

accept that boys are different to girls. They are wired differently. I have spent a lot of time getting the huff with girlfreinds that excused their sons behaviour by saying " oh well,they are boys" - while I felt they should pick things up if I remind them ( nag) enough, etc etc.

[littleEDfamily]

Take time to smell the roses. I had the routine sorted with first, but didn't take the time to just enjoy her gorgeousness. With second, I have gone all attachment and am only just now (6 months) getting a routine sorted. I have really enjoyed her, but I am exhausted beyond belief.

So.... if I had a third, I would push for a routine (and get them in their own room) earlier, by 3/4 months, but also learn my lesson from the first that babies are adorable and to indulge myself and them more. One thing I would not change though is being 'strict' with them from toddlerhood. From about 18 months, I think it has to be all about consistency, routine and making sure they start to recognise you as being in charge. I do (trying not to be offensive, but probably failing) think overly permissive parenting spawns selfish brats!

But I'm not having a third, so I just have to accept that hindsight is a wonderful thing :-)

PS Edited to say a Gina-esque routine is not, in my opinion, selfish. You have to be honest with your self and recognise when something you thought would work doesn't....if you're having a shocker with baby led parenting, Gina type stuff can provide a lifeline.

[Link]

I second Fuschia. Learning that most things are a phase will be the first thing I would learn and that when a phase passes, a sigh of relief and some fresh air before another one sets in.

Also, another thing I would do differently is not to work full time, doing a uni program, have a 15 months old toddler and be pregnant at the same time! Sounds insane just listing it, it was hell at the time but all worked out well in the end. A little breather would have helped a lot!

[Keef]

Edited so as not to be argumentative.

[Saila]

I third Fushcia's comments on things being a phase.

I also second the comments about just using a dummy earlier as we had a very sucky baby and it meant he fell asleep instantly with a dummy which was brillantly easy

i would also use formula ealier and not stress so much about exclusively bfing e.g. for Dad to do the dreamfeed and i could get a long sleep, which is a blessing in the early days...

I did gina-lite from the very beginning and would absolutely do that again. Fingers xed it works as well next time as it did for us last time. I only did gina-lite as i was recommended it by my sister - but in retrospect i'm *very* glad we did as we never had to do that cry-it-out thing which i would have found quite hard

good luck!

[Moos]

I seemto be doing a fine job of making all the same mistakes all ove again!

:-)

[samstopit]

I think you are generally a lot more relaxed the second time around and have the confidence to know what is right for your child. Instead of being driven crackers by the dichotomy between gina / attachment we just did what felt right for our second. She fell happily into the gina routine at 12 weeks but if it hadn't have worked for her I wouldn't have pushed it. I fed her through the night if she woke - something I tried hard not to do with my first from about 4-5 months. It didn't lead to any long term problems and she slept through without a feed from 9 months.

Both of mine were terrible sleepers when they were 2 but came though it when they turned 3. I think it's because they start wanting to drop their day time sleep when they are 2 (mine did anyway) which leads to overtiredness, but if they do have a daytime sleep they don't settle well. It does pass! Having said that, I am guzzling coffee as I write having had 3 hours sleep ... tummy bugs in the stopit household x

[susyp]

Have you tried dropping the daytime sleep? My daughter is 2 1/2 and had never slept through the night until about 4 months ago when I got fed up of spending 45 mins getting her to sleep at lunctime and up to an hour getting her to sleep in the evening - took a few weeks to get her to cope (4.30 pm+ she became very tired) but I haven't looked back - she is asleep by 7pm now and doesn't wake up til 7am and is absolutely fine in the day - still running around at 6pm! And goes out like a light. And its tons easier. I always had a routine with her and it's bliss now not needing one eg not worrying about where I will be at lunchtime will she get tired etc etc.

I agree with the other comments - def wouldn't have stressed the breast feeding so much and also not worried about phases quite so much.

susypx

[Maki]

Yes, Ayla hasn't needed a daytime nap now for a few months.

Having 'watched' her trying to sleep for a few nights in a row now I can definitley say that the problem is that she is in a light sleep for up to 5 hoursin the night without ever slipping into a deep enough sleep that she doesn't wake at the slightest noise (like me getting up out of the chair beside her.

So, I've tried to be a bit more chilled about things and we are now just doing anything we can to get a bit more sleep ourselves so we are keeping her up until about 10pm, then she generally wakes at 1am and needs one of us to be with her until 4am, but at least because she is waing at 1am rather than 11pm, it means we are getting a couple of hours extra sleep which makes a lot of difference.

Cheers for all the advice, I'm sure it will pass. I just would like to know when and if I can do anything to help it pass more quickly! Ha!

[samstopit]

Maki, do you know how many hours' sleep (roughly) she is getting at night? If as you say she is in a light sleep for many hours in the night, waking at the slightest noise, and not having a day time sleep, then she could be really overtired. This can stop people (adults as well as kids) from sleeping well - we get so tired that we can't sleep. If I were you I would encourage her to have a sleep in the day - does she sleep in the car or buggy? That might break the pattern of overtiredness and she would drop into a less 'wired' sleep at night.

I know you've probably been trying to cut back on her day time sleep but in my experience this can sometimes make the problem worse.

By the way we find music in their bedrooms helps too. Hope this is some help. I know how hard it is when you're tired.

S x

[susyp]

Yes music helps my daughter too. Also I got her a groclock which also acts as a nightlight - it made a difference as my daughter was getting up at 5am and now I can get her to go back to sleep with a mixture of bribery/threats (no xxx today unless you go back to sleep) and persuasion that mr sun isn't up yet.

I sympathise having had a hell of a time myself with my daughter's sleeping - she is by no means consistently sleeping all night but she does sometimes and even on bad nights she isn't awake for too long - hopefully she'll grow out of it. I also found that whenever my daughter was learning something new (crawling, walking, talking etc) she slept really badly. This week she has been having lots of nightmares so has been waking but only briefly.

Oh and the other thing I tried when I was having a mare was to give her plenty of outdoor exercise, particularly in the afternoon - this definitely helps. She sleeps much less deeply if she hasn;t run around in the fresh air in the day.

susypx

[Maki]

I think she (on very approx ave) is getting 4 hours of good quality sleep and 5 hours of either being wide awake or in a very light sleep. The thing is during the day she is an angel, so I'm very lucky in a lot of respects that she is so happy when she's awake (this has not always been the case), and weirdly when she was sleeping 12 hours through the night about 6 weeks ago she was driving me mad with how demanding she was being. I couldn't do a thing without her being carried. Very strange indeed....

I do think maybe it's a developmental thing because she is a real chatterbox and we are now having (very repetitive) conversations, but conversations none the less. Yesterday on the drive home from nursery we talked for 30 mins about how the potatoes for dinner would be hot, not cold, but hot and if Ayla blows on them they will become warm. Also she would like them with some butter and cheese. These facts were repeated over and over for AGES!! Made me smile though :)

Thanks for your sympathy susyp and sorry to hear that you also have bad nights. Funnily enough we haven't tried music yet but we are reverting back to the white noise that we used when she was first born as we're hoping it will help with her not hearing other household noises. Unfortunately, 4 days out of 7 she is at nursery so I don't have control every day about whether she gets lots of exercise but they seem to be pretty good at it (they go outside even in rain and snow which I think is great).

Wishing everyone good sleeps tonight xx

[nunheadmum]

Maki, I really sympathise with your lack of sleep and trying to work it out. Although I wouldn't say either of mine were the worst sleepers, we've never been totally consistent with being good. I do think development plays a big part in the early stages.

I'm with samstopit on this one though and would suggest maybe more sleep than less. Having been through problems with both of mine, I always find the only real way to solve problems (going to sleep and waking during the night) was to get them sleeping better and long enough at lunchtime and having early enough bedtimes. It's hard when they're at nursery and you can't control how long they're getting there. We've been a bit lucky and either our problems coincided with long weekends or we've been able to take some time off etc to get a run of days to concentrate on lunchtime sleeps. But it always has been a help. I always feel that cutting out the day-time sleep early in kids is a bit like us adults when the kids first come along - you learn to cope with less sleep but you're really not operating at your best. And when those little brains are trying to learn and take everything in and make sense of it, I can see how it can be difficult for them to switch off if they've had to learn how to keep going even when they're tired.

I'd recommend the kidsleep bunny clock too - it was a great help with both of ours. Somehow the kids seem to really click with the concept of bunny sleeping. (Backed up with a chocolate button or two in the morning if they go to sleep / stay asleep / don't wake early or whatever....even more effective!)

Fingers crossed for you tonight!