Stupid copy-protected CDs

[Huguenot]

There is a significant overlap between those defending piracy on this thread and those attacking production houses for failing to pay extras on an accompanying thread... It seems to be okay not to pay artists when it suits them.

Perhaps DJKQ should explain to these unpaid TV extras that they should be doing it for nothing because it's a good marketing tool for them, and people who watch them work for free watch a third more television (although not necessarily them)?

Edited because forgot to ;-)

[Kingy]

You are missing several points Mr MacGabhann - I have several 'burnt' copies of bootleg cd's, live and rare stuff unavailable through commercial means - I have never said I don't - most o fwhich have been given to me by band members themselves - I have several compilation cd's of material that is used to send to other musicians to learn tunes (which may or not be regarded as educational) - I know what I am doing in possessing these things and I do not wish to turn a blind eye to that.

The main point is that the Copyright holder of a work (the artist or record company) has a right to decide in what format he wants that work released. The buyer of the work (c.d. in this case) does not own the work, he has been granted a licence with terms and conditions attached to listen to that work. The buyer owns the physical plastic of the c.d but he does not 'own' the music, nor does he own any of the rights that the copyright holder of the work holds.

If the buyer wants to change the format of a copyright protected c.d then he has no right to do so - if he goes ahead and does it anyway then he has assumed the copyright, ie he has taken something which isn't his (yes I know it's not a physical something but ....)

Call it wall you will but if you take something that isn't yours to take, be it a physical object or an assigned right to alter the format of a musical work then it is thievery. If you but a copy protected c.d. you can be under no illusion that the copyright holder allows you to copy it or to change the format of it. It doesn't matter how many copies of it you buy, you cannot legally assign yourself the right to alter the format and thereby

assume the rights of the copyright holder. You do not own the music.

If you are indulging in these activities, and you may believe (as in RosieH's case) that she has a moral right to do so then don't behind the dressing up of the language and try to convince yourself that you are doing nothing wrong - at the very least you are breaking the terms of the licensing agreement without the other party's knowledge and thereby leading yourself open to accusations of defrauding them, at worst inviting others to join you can be perceived as conspiracy to defraud

[Huguenot]

Almost Kingy, but at worst you're doing it on bittorrent because you think as a consequence you'll get more music back - that's breach of copyright and consipracy to defraud for material gain...

[Kingy]

Anyone care to defend identify theft ?

[DJKillaQueen]

H where have I said piracy is ok? I have merely pointed out the difficulties in addressing it along with some reasons why it is not treated with the heavy hand you might expect if the music industry really cared so much about it. There is absolutely no comparison to be had between people being paid an hourly wage for the work they do and the cost to 'royalites' of piracy. The two things are seperate problems (one is a wage being denied by an employer which is illegal and the other is royalties being denied by the consumer - also illegal).

Maybe I should put you back on ignore seeing as you seem to be on some crusade to attack everything I post?

[DJKillaQueen]

The other thing to say about the majority of illegally downloaded music is that it is in mp3 form. That is never as good as the sound quality of a non compressed audio file such as that found on an original CD. My only gripe personally with the music industry are the prices we were charged for CDs in the past. During the 80's and 90's I imported most of my cds from the US for that reason.

[*Bob*]

Piracy has been a tool of music promotion for as long as I can remember.. tolerated (embraced even, sometimes) by the industry when it suits. Hardly anything is so black and white.

Complicating the ways in which people (who actually pay for music) get to enjoy the music they've paid for 'in a reasonable manner' is liable to be counter-productive.

Just a couple of thoughts on the subject in general.

[RosieH]

Anyone care to stop putting words in my mouth, Huguenot and Kingy? Where have I said that I have a moral right to do anything?

For fuck's sake Kingy, you're a staggeringly pompous arse, ascribing malintent where there was none. All I did was ask if it is possible to listen to a copy-protected CD on itunes. I had no idea that it would be illegal, so I certainly had no thought that I had some moral right to anything: I owned a CD and wanted to know if I could play it on my mac.

It seems you enjoy riding your high horse around this particular crusade, and you're very welcome to it. But I would ask that you stop right now ascribing thoughts or intentions to me that simply aren't there.

[SeanMacGabhann]

So a reasonable request about getting some tracks from a CD on to an MP3 player has resulted in various forms of accusation ? thievery, hypocracy, conflation with ID theft (I mean WTF??)

Kingy you go to great lengths to explain how ?changing the format? of music Is piracy and theft but it?s all bollocks. What RosieH wishes to do in this case falls fair and square in the ?fair use? category

There is no other question here

But as you have raised the morality of the rights holders ? these twats actually implemented a system on cds which installed software on to individuals pcs, without their permission, leaving them exposed to infection. They installed software on computers they don?t own ? they are the criminals here, not people like RosieH

Protecting music in this way (and DRM on mp3s) is going the way of the dodo ? it?s unworkable and causes legitimates customers grief . Pirates don?t have to suffer any of this grief because they are using versions with all of this ripped out anyway

[david_carnell]

If anyone wonders why ???? has left the forum you only need to read this thread.

Jay-sus.

[Kingy]

And Rosie H you are effing stoopid - you can read the fricking cd - it say's copy protected - you know it's 'wrong' to copy it but you try to justify it saying you've paid for it twice - you haven't paid for it at all - you've paid for the right to listn to it in the presribed manner - it's easy to be pompous when you're in the right - why don't you just take your copy protected cd and shove it up your own arse

[Emerson Crane]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If anyone wonders why ???? has left the forum you

> only need to read this thread.

>

> Jay-sus.

Well yes, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how weird and wonderful. And lets be honest this Forum is no differnt from many others nor do the views posted on here differ wildly from those espoused by many of the populace. Just saying like.

[Huguenot]

DJKQ in oversensitive shocker... I was merely addressing your points. Please feel free to ignore me, water and duck's back etc. It's tiring walking over eggshells anywhere near you, I'd be pleased for the relief.

Sorry RosieH, I didn't think I put words in your mouth, I said I can see you feel the system let you down. I don't have to quote you precisely to explain where I got that from?

I agree with most of the points made, I don't think that any of them justify piracy - which is not generally used to describe home duplication for personal use, but for redistribution.

'Anti-suit' and 'great marketing' are not arguments used by home users, but by pirates.

[SeanMacGabhann]

and musicians (man)

[Huguenot]

Only musicians who have chosen to give away their stuff for free, not by musicians who want to get paid for their work and have the opportunity stolen from them by freeloaders and parasites.

[Kingy]

Dear Rosie H it would be nice if you actually read what is written - I did not call you a thief and I did not say that YOU believed you had a moral right to this I said that if Sean McG believed you had a moral right to this - so I can think of a place for you to park your bike as well, there's plenty of room, all the shit comes out in your posts

[SeanMacGabhann]

Not really - musicians have always liked to portray themselves as "anti suit". It's part of the "marketing"

Anyway, parasites and freeloaders exist BUT if the perfect mechanism was in place to foil them they wouldn't suddenly become consumers. These are not lost sales. It doesn't make them any more morally valid but I don't think many opportunities for sales are being lost

People who "steal" music tend to be people who like getting "stuff" for free - they don't care about it, probably don't like it and probably don't listen to it. Idiots, but they were never buying the stuff anyway. And they certainly aren't interested in the smaller artists.

So big artists - not losing out

Small artists - not losing out as their fans tend to buy the cds

Who is losing what here exactly?

[SeanMacGabhann]

And kingy

To have been involved in a slanging match with someone is one thing - you both exchanged verbals - but you are now going OTT and constantly coming back JUST to be rude to the OP

Stop it

[*Bob*]

Might be a good time and place to plug your latest CD though, Kingy - don't let this marketing opportunity slip away.

[Kingy]

She fricking started it

[SeanMacGabhann]

No she didn't - she posted a perfectly legitimate question

your first post in the whole debate simply said

"thievery"

which doesn't chime very well with your pompous "Dear Rosie H it would be nice if you actually read what is written - I did not call you a thief "

[Kingy]

and what is implied by my posting the word 'thievery' ? - it was meant as a suggestion not to do it as it is illegal (I think only KK recognised this) - i did not call her a thief - but she chose to believe that I had (wrongly) and proceed to tell me to stick somethng or other up my arse, someone else joined in and told me i don't know my arse from my elbow now if anyone had suggested either of these things to me in the local boozer they would now be the recipient of the Glasgow Kiss. neither did i suggest that she belived she had any moral rights - but somehow she managed to deduce these things and be offensive in the doing so

[david_carnell]

Emerson Crane Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> david_carnell Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > If anyone wonders why ???? has left the forum

> you

> > only need to read this thread.

> >

> > Jay-sus.

>

>

> Well yes, but everyone is entitled to their

> opinion, no matter how weird and wonderful. And

> lets be honest this Forum is no differnt from many

> others nor do the views posted on here differ

> wildly from those espoused by many of the

> populace. Just saying like.

Ah, the old "freedom of speech" argument. Because until you mentioned it EC, I'd been advocating cellotaping mouths closed and typing fingers were to be amputated.

But you know what, with that freedom comes a responsibility. Not to act like a nark at every opportunity or not to turn a fairly innocent thread/request into a running ideological battle and insult-fest for example. But there are lots of others.

If that's what you enjoy reading then I'll leave you and all the other masochists to it, but for me, it's a perfect example of the current malaise infecting the local populous.

[Kingy]

I think what we all really want to know is 'Did she burn the C.D ?' (cue theme from Dragnet)

[SeanMacGabhann]

I would say just posting "thievery" is neither helpful nor watertight in it's unambiguity

The bottom line is it's illegality is open to question, with many people aware that it's a leftover from vinyl days. it's out of step with many places in the world and won't be illegal for much longer

The companies who tried to inmplement some CD protection systems broke the law

Nobody on here is advocating "piracy"

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/cyberclinic-is-it-really-illegal-to-rip-a-cd-to-my-computer-769184.html

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/bargains-and-rip-offs/article.html?in_article_id=500206&in_page_id=5