consultation on engines to be turned off when stationary

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi all, this consultation to help reduce environmental pollution caused by stationary vehicles in the Borough has just opened:

LONDON BOROUGH OF SOUTHWARK

ENGINES TO BE TURNED OFF WHEN STATIONARY IN PARKING PLACES, FREE PARKING PLACES, LOADING BAYS AND ON WAITING RESTRICTIONS

The London Borough of Southwark (Engines to be turned off when stationary) (Parking places, free parking places, loading bays and waiting restrictions) (No. 1) Order 2017

1. Southwark Council hereby GIVES NOTICE that it proposes to make the above order under sections 6, 45, 46, 49 and 128 of and Part IV of Schedule 9 to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, as amended, and of all other powers thereunto enabling.

2. The effect of the order would be to prohibit vehicles from waiting with the engine running, regardless of whether the vehicle is attended, in all pay parking places, free parking places, loading bays and on all waiting restrictions throughout the borough - so as to reduce environmental pollution caused by vehicles.

3. Further information may be obtained by contacting Mr. David Sole, the council's Parking services and development manager by telephone on 020 7525 2037 or e-mail: [email protected]

4. Copies of this notice, the proposed order and a statement of the council's reasons for making the order may be found online at http://www.southwark.gov.uk/trafficorders or paper copies may be obtained from or viewed at Highways, Environment, 3rd floor hub 2, 160 Tooley Street, London SE1 2QH. Please telephone 020 7525 2005 for details.

5. Anyone wishing to object to or make any other representations regarding the proposal, may use the form labelled 'Parking - Road traffic and highway schemes - responding to statutory consultation notices' at https://forms.southwark.gov.uk/ or send a statement in writing to: the Traffic orders officer, Highways, Southwark council, Environment, P.O. Box 64529, London SE1P 5LX or by e-mail to [email protected] quoting reference H/ND/TMO1718-007 by 25 May 2017. Please note that if you wish to object to this proposal you must state the grounds on which your objection is made.

6. When making an objection or representation, please be aware that this may be communicated to other people who may be affected. Information provided in response to this consultation, including in some circumstances personal information, may also be subject to publication or disclosure under the requirements of current access to information legislation.

Dated 04 May 2017

NICKY COSTIN

Parking and network management business unit manager

Regulatory services

[TheArtfulDogger]

How will this be enforced and what happens to fines

How long is the grace period

Whilst a good idea to stop people sitting with their engines running it does yet again feel like a tax on motorists

[Villager]

Any thing that reduces veicle pollution is to be commended but I am not sure how effectively running engines whilst stationary could be effectively or efficiently monitored.

As a resident on East Dulwich Grove, near the Village end, I am acutely aware that the peak levels of pollution co-incide with the morning and afternoon school runs.

The worst polluters by far are the large cars and Chelsea tractors used to ferry kids to and from school. The majority of these do short journeys and this is borne out by the level of condensation emitted from the exhausts.

This condensation indicates that the engines have not reached their optimum operating temperature. As a result the emission control systems are totally ineffective. The catalytic converters only become effective when they reach high temperature. Similarly withh the fuel control systems inject a richer fuel mixture until the engine warms up. Under these conditions these engines emit up to 8 times their regular levels of pollutants.

Something ought to be done about these as a first priority.

[uncleglen]

In my experience it is tradesman and builders' vans that are the main culprits- I have had an EDF van and others idling in my road recently and they sit there for 15 minutes at a time- obviously they are not personally paying for the fuel. I did speak to a van driver once but he didn't speak English and shrugged his shoulders- so you might want to get any notices printed in umpteen languages

[malumbu]

Good.

It's not just tradespeople.

Good

It's not just people who can't speak English

Good.

PA can the lady who had the wobbly at me on Peckham Rye when I gently asked her to turn her engine off whilst she sat their texting now acknowledge that I am right.

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In my experience it is tradesman and builders'

> vans that are the main culprits- I have had an EDF

> van and others idling in my road recently and they

> sit there for 15 minutes at a time- obviously they

> are not personally paying for the fuel. I did

> speak to a van driver once but he didn't speak

> English and shrugged his shoulders- so you might

> want to get any notices printed in umpteen

> languages

Seriously, is there anything you can't turn into anti-foreigner bigotry?

[rendelharris]

Villager Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Any thing that reduces veicle pollution is to be

> commended but I am not sure how effectively

> running engines whilst stationary could be

> effectively or efficiently monitored.

>

> As a resident on East Dulwich Grove, near the

> Village end, I am acutely aware that the peak

> levels of pollution co-incide with the morning and

> afternoon school runs.

>

> The worst polluters by far are the large cars and

> Chelsea tractors used to ferry kids to and from

> school. The majority of these do short journeys

> and this is borne out by the level of condensation

> emitted from the exhausts.

>

> This condensation indicates that the engines have

> not reached their optimum operating temperature.

> As a result the emission control systems are

> totally ineffective. The catalytic converters only

> become effective when they reach high temperature.

> Similarly withh the fuel control systems inject

> a richer fuel mixture until the engine warms up.

> Under these conditions these engines emit up to 8

> times their regular levels of pollutants.

>

> Something ought to be done about these as a first

> priority.

Well said.

[malumbu]

Turning my engine off when parked was ingrained as I was a student when I had my first car and did everything to save money. Obviously for many this is not the first thing that they do judging from what I see daily.

Over half of new cars have stop start technology that switches the engine off when stationary after a certain time, it takes a few days to get used to then you can just enjoy saving money and saving the environment. Yet many turn the technology off fueled by the popular press and some of the motoring websites that report that it ruins batteries and wears the starter motor out. It doesn't. It's a no brainer.

It's a shame that we need national and local government to intervene. But at the end of the day many of us are selfish in our driving habits and it is probably easier to admit to being bad in bed than being a bad driver.

Right off my soapbox now.

And no this is not all a Brussels' conspiracy

[tiddles]

Will this apply to the Southwark camera cars that won't work unless their engines are running?

[malumbu]

And similarly to other vehicles (there will be sensible exemptions or discretion) - although I don't believe the cops always have to leave their engines running and when I challenge them on this they are particularly stupid.

Not all cops are stupid by the way. A lot are.

Anyway people are dying so let's do something about it. Looking forward to the draft air quality plan.

[bobbsy]

A priority should be to reduce emissions of large trucks, older buses, and taxi's. Everyday I am behind these forms of vehicles that are belching huge clouds of black smoke whenever they accelerate. Target the commercial sector in addition to the private sector.

[rendelharris]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Over half of new cars have stop start technology

> that switches the engine off when stationary after

> a certain time, it takes a few days to get used

> to then you can just enjoy saving money and saving

> the environment. Yet many turn the technology off

> fueled by the popular press and some of the

> motoring websites that report that it ruins

> batteries and wears the starter motor out. It

> doesn't. It's a no brainer.

Mrs.H's new Smart does this, it's brilliant. I can't actually believe the option to turn it off is available - why? If you're somewhere you need to make a quick getaway you can keep the engine running just by keeping the accelerator very slightly depressed - in hers at least the engine doesn't cut until it's at a complete stop, braked and no gas applied. The only regular trip I make with her is to take her mother in Croydon her shopping, usually on a Saturday afternoon. Nightmare journey, I reckon at least 60% of the journey time is spent stationary, so this technology pretty much halves the emissions. The difference when all vehicles have it (and hopefully no opt-out option) will be tremendous.

[JohnL]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Turning my engine off when parked was ingrained as

> I was a student when I had my first car and did

> everything to save money. Obviously for many this

> is not the first thing that they do judging from

> what I see daily.

>

> Over half of new cars have stop start technology

> that switches the engine off when stationary after

> a certain time, it takes a few days to get used

> to then you can just enjoy saving money and saving

> the environment. Yet many turn the technology off

> fueled by the popular press and some of the

> motoring websites that report that it ruins

> batteries and wears the starter motor out. It

> doesn't. It's a no brainer.

>

> It's a shame that we need national and local

> government to intervene. But at the end of the

> day many of us are selfish in our driving habits

> and it is probably easier to admit to being bad in

> bed than being a bad driver.

>

> Right off my soapbox now.

>

> And no this is not all a Brussels' conspiracy

Oh god no - just recalled a mate in the 80s who switches his engine off when going downhill as he didn't have much money for petrol -don't do it.

anyway when a guy driving down Rye Lane sees his mate and stops for a 10 minute chat thus causing a tailback to East Dulwich Road he should be made to turn the engine off too.

just joking :)

[Borky]

This is going to be rather difficult to impose I fear- if we cannot get on top of mobile phone use and basic Highway code themes like horn use at night or near hospitals, I fail to see how this can be effective - even if well intentioned . I would not like to be the enforcement official who risks his life to impose a regulation like this.

[peckham_ryu]

Thanks for sharing.

Fair enough that people shouldn't run engines so much. This isn't exactly going to put a dent in our Kyoto commitment though, is it? And it will be fun in winter, when people have to de-mist windscreens for 5 minutes in the mornings.

Meanwhile, we could have been making a real difference to the planet by reducing energy consumption in buildings. And we could have improved road safety by giving our enforcement officers proper training for their vehicles. (The council seems to think it's sensible for its staff to ride scooters around town without giving them enough training to pass a driving licence test.)

[Borky]

It does seem to be both piecemeal and populist. Cutting car usage would be the easier approach, but financial penalties for higher users in cities would be decried as a de facto tax on the poorer sections of society (as it usually is with most species of taxation. It is up there with littering and letting your cur lay its eggs on the path - it is a habit no more or less, but I fear that this is an uphill battle

[Seabag]

It's one of those 'no brainer' ideas, much like driving and talking on the phone, that's doomed to be an uphill struggle to get into the driving culture.

I'd love to always remember to do it, but often forget. It took a fine for me to properly rethink my phone/driving mentality. And I'm quite a considerate and thoughtful citizen.

Maybe once the new auto turn off cars cycle through the system in 5 or so years, then great.

[uncleglen]

Seriously rendelharris are you completely oblivious of what is going on in the building trade?

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seriously rendelharris are you completely

> oblivious of what is going on in the building

> trade?

In what particular sense? And should we ignore a workable solution to make a sizeable cut to a major source of pollution which is easy to implement just because it's not the only source of pollution? Do you actually have an objection to plans for stationary vehicles being required to turn off their engines?

[Mallard Von Hannover]

I can understand the point, but:

What about when someone is working on a car? To diagnose faults the engine may need to running. Also if anything if being powered by the battery then without the alternator going it can all too easily be run flat. Obviously not a reason to *not* introduce much needed legislation to cut emissions but a blanket ban could be annoying.

What if you pull over to quickly answer the phone (as in stopped for 30 seconds)

What about the need to properly defrost the car on a cold day before it is safe to drive off?

Again I agree with the idea, just suggestions as to how it ought to be carefully introduced

[rendelharris]

Mallard Von Hannover Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I can understand the point, but:

> What about when someone is working on a car? To

> diagnose faults the engine may need to running.

> Also if anything if being powered by the battery

> then without the alternator going it can all too

> easily be run flat. Obviously not a reason to

> *not* introduce much needed legislation to cut

> emissions but a blanket ban could be annoying.

> What if you pull over to quickly answer the phone

> (as in stopped for 30 seconds)

> What about the need to properly defrost the car on

> a cold day before it is safe to drive off?

> Again I agree with the idea, just suggestions as

> to how it ought to be carefully introduced

Well, re keeping the engine running for repairs, there is at present the option to disable the system from the dashboard (I don't know what it's like on all cars, on Mrs.H's this has to be reset every journey or it defaults to auto-stop). That option could be retained for repair purposes but placed somewhere (e.g. under the bonnet) where it wouldn't be convenient to keep disabling the system every trip.

Re the battery use, the engine won't cut if a large draining application is being used - for example we were confused when Mrs.H first got her Smart as the stop-start didn't seem to work: on reading the manual we realised it was because we had the heater on, it wouldn't cut in until the cabin had reached the requested temperature. Clever, eh?

Pulling over to answer the 'phone - well, on the Smart, and I assume it's the same for other makes, the cutoff doesn't work unless you're in neutral and the clutch is fully released, so you could just keep the clutch down to keep the engine running. Worth noting though that legally answering the 'phone with the engine running, even if you're parked up in a layby with the handbrake on, is still an offence!

Defrosting the car: well that's maybe an example of how we've become a bit lazy (not you personally, I'm just as bad!). With a little foresight (e.g. placing newspaper sheets or a cover over the windscreen at night) and effort (a few minutes with the scraper certainly warms one up!) one doesn't have to use the engine to defrost the car, but we seem to have come to rely on it - to the extent that I understand luxury models can be remotely turned on from inside the house without even having to go outside! To have a car sitting in a driveway belching out fumes in order to do a job that could be done manually, or even avoided with pre-planning, seems to me the height of folly.

I do understand your objections, but I think they're in no way insurmountable.

[Mallard Von Hannover]

I was thinking more in terms of rules and regs affecting current owners of cars not equipped with this technology. Of course stop-start negates all the issues, especially since the car is designed to be constantly stopping and starting the engine.

[rendelharris]

Mallard Von Hannover Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was thinking more in terms of rules and regs

> affecting current owners of cars not equipped with

> this technology. Of course stop-start negates all

> the issues, especially since the car is designed

> to be constantly stopping and starting the engine.

Well I think what I said still pretty much applies to cars without the tech - obviously (I hope) you're not going to get nicked for having the engine running for repairs, one's obliged by law to turn the engine off when taking a 'phone call, and having the engine running to defrost is just lazy and wasteful (IMO). I see the point about the battery though, possibly some mods might be required, which hopefully could be paid for with the savings made on fuel and/or subsidised by the authorities.

[Otta]

Villager Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The worst polluters by far are the large cars and

> Chelsea tractors used to ferry kids to and from

> school. The majority of these do short journeys

> and this is borne out by the level of condensation

> emitted from the exhausts.

SEN/Disabilities aside, anyone that lives within 2 miles of their kid's primary school and drives them needs shooting. Just bloody walk, it's good exercise for your kids and for you.

And anyone that drives their kids to secondary school needs shooting whatever the distance.

[Jennys]

What about the coaches outside Alleyns School. They often have their engines running for long periods whilst stationary, especially in cold weather, although I believe they have been told not to.