Northcross Market to open on Sundays?

[citizenED]

100

[James Barber]

Hi Keef,

I think you're beign a little disingenuous.

The proposal sent out as a public consultation appears to have been very poorly managed - officers said issued to all homes within half mile radius which would be around 10,000 homes but only 2,000 questionairres printed. Lots of people satying they've never received one.

The consultation never mentioned a road closure - despite ward councillors asking exactly that question when the questionairre was being prepared and told no road closure.

The actual area proposed for the extra stalls was the north side of NCR outside the terraced houses between Archdale Road and Lacon Road which have miniscule front gardens. The market traders arrive well before 7am and are very noisy setting up their metal pole stalls. So residents would be disturbed from 5 or 6 am onwards having been disturbed by late night revellers.

I can entirely understand residents being alarmed at these suggestions which were NOT made clear in the consultation.

[edcam]

I agree with Keef's post above - they could do with spending a bit more energy on improving the quality of the Saturday market before thinking about opening on Sunday. Some of the food stalls a re pretty good but it doesn't seem to be attracting people selling anything else very interesting or unique.

[Keef]

James, in that care, it's a terrible idea. As i said, I was getting muddled between lacon and nutfield. I himl a road closure between lordship lane and archdale could potentially make a great market space (and no front gardens). The area you describe is an absolutely terrible idea. Apologies, it was my mistake.

[James Barber]

One of the drivers is to cover the markets deficit by raising money from Sunday trading on Northcross Road.

It would raise an extra ?20K and officers seem very focused in the public report to the Licensing Committee to that end.

Since the Licensing Committee a report to council Cabinet about the markets department suggests an insource partly funded through expanding Northcross Road market into Sundays.

So it does feel like a potential risk officers might be strongly motivated by self interest rather than truly listening to residents or running a fair consultation.

[Sue]

Why is the market making a deficit?

Not enough stalls? Too low a stall rental?

Surely those issues should be addressed before trying to expand into Sunday, when surely the same issues would arise.

[Keef]

I really must start reading my posts before submitting them. Stupid predictive text.

[James Barber]

Hi Sue,

All Southwark's markets have one centrally held ring fenced account. Legally it has to be ring fenced from other council monies. It currently has an accumulated deficit of over ?700,000.

North Cross Road is making a surplus - but East Street market I understand is making a loss. Hence why the drastic changes proposed to boost revenue to NCR to subsidise East Street market and stabalise the deficit.

Why is East Street market making losses? Long story involving dodgy dealing, mass sackings for gross misconduct and almost all the permanent traders with all the best pitches fighting any changes - having moved out of Southwark to live in Kent.

I've asked offciers if any preference is or could be given to residents of Southwark to have market stalls at NCR market and outher Southwark markets but apparently firm no's to both.

I've also asked whether each market could have its own seperate ring fenced account. The answer was no.

[Sue]

That's terrible.

So the proposed changes to North Cross Road market are dressed up as a benefit to the area when actually they're to subsidise an apparently badly run and monitored market elsewhere.

How can the permanent traders at East Street "fight changes"? Who runs the market, them or the council? I'd have more sympathy if they were Southwark residents,but you say they aren't.

Who is the council Head of Department responsible for all this?

[Ridgley]

Jeremy - I not talking about some ?3 cake, I talking about over priced tat like second stuff that are worse for wear and over priced jewellery shabby arts & craft but if you think it value for money then they defiantly so you coming.

[Hartvl]

Hi Keef,

I must admit to not seeing the consultation but we do have a rather large pile of post tat near our front door so I will check to see if it is in there.

[Jeremy]

Ridgley - fair enough.

(I still think the cake is expensive though)

[Sue]

Ridgley Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jeremy - I not talking about some ?3 cake, I

> talking about over priced tat like second stuff

> that are worse for wear and over priced jewellery

> shabby arts & craft but if you think it value for

> money then they defiantly so you coming.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I think some of the stuff for sale is actually good value, like some of the kitchen dressers for example.

[bonaome]

James, you say North Cross Road is making a surplus - but East Street market ... is making a loss. Hence why the drastic changes proposed to boost revenue to NCR to subsidise East Street market and stabalise the ... ?700k ... deficit."

Other than a dustcart to sweep up afterwards, and a bit of electricity, what are the costs to the council of running a street market? My mind boggles as to how that 'account' can be ?700k in the red. That's a lot of sweeping up. Or have I misunderstood?

[DulwichFox]

The larger the Market the more rubbish and hence higher running costs. ??

The larger the Market the higher the risk of 'dodgy dealing'

that James has said to be the problem in East Street Market.

Cost of new Road signs. Someone to Close/Reopen Roads. ??

[James Barber]

Hi bonaome,

That ?700k is accumulated over a number of years.

Regards james.

[civilservant]

?700k is a huge deficit, even over a period of years, and indicates very poor management

Re. costs. Of course there'll be short-term or temporary costs such as traffic/parking/ congestion, and even the cost of an extra dustcart (and street cleaner) and a bit of electricity.

But friends who lived near East Street Market used to complain about the mounds of rubbish (especially perishables) generated by the market and the ensuing problems with rats and other vermin. Once rats move in and like it, they tend to stay!

More generally, if Southwark can't manage East Street Market, or even consult residents properly, how can it guarantee that it'll be able to manage an extended North Cross Road Market?

The great advantage of the present market's size is its ability to self-police. Once the market expands it will be much harder to keep tabs on individual stalls and the hawkers that the market will inevitably attract.

I haven't seen any proposals about the kind of stalls that will be allowed, how applications will be vetted, how stalls and licence holders will be monitored, or the criteria for awarding or renewing licences for an expanded market with a wider variety of stalls. Or even about the extra policing that will be needed. If the council can't make it work in East Street, why should it work in North Cross Road?

Re. nimbyism. Quite right too. The impact of extending the market will fall disproportionately on the people who live nearest it, so it is only right that they should have the biggest say about the proposal. I notice that the Village people never get upset about the limited commercial opportunities on their own doorsteps - what do they know that we in ED don't?

[Narnia]

James Barber Wrote:

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> Hi bonaome,

> That ?700k is accumulated over a number of years.

>

> Regards james.

Saying it's accumulated over a number of years doesn't make it any better James. How could this be allowed to happen and who is responsible for it? It's mind boggling incompetency or corruption.

[peterstorm1985]

James Barber Wrote:

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>> The actual area proposed for the extra stalls was

> the north side of NCR outside the terraced houses

> between Archdale Road and Lacon Road which have

> miniscule front gardens. The market traders arrive

> well before 7am and are very noisy setting up

> their metal pole stalls. So residents would be

> disturbed from 5 or 6 am onwards having been

> disturbed by late night revellers.

If this happened outside my window on a weekend morning I'm not sure that I would be able to maintain self control. No one should be subjected to it. The market is a great place for unnecessary shopping - it is expensive - so it's more for entertainment than need. I can't see why any additional market needs to set up before 9am at the earliest.

[James Barber]

Hi narnia,

?700k is outlandish. Partly this came from sacking all the market officers for dodgy practices. Market management company had to be employed as an emergency. Partly bEast Street has lots of empty pitches and shrunk to 4 main days a week so not raising as much revenue - do you know anyone in East Dulwich who travels to East street for the market - it isn't exactly a destination market any more.

hi Peterstorm1985,

I could'nt agree more.

[civilservant]

So what are the arrangeements for managing North Cross Road Market? Does it have market officers or does Southwark use a management comopany?

[Sue]

As a councillor, James, to whom ultimately presumably council employees are responsible, can you not put pressure on these particular employees?

It does seem to me that somebody must have taken their eye off the ball (to put it mildly) if they did not realise what was going on at East Street, resulting in such a massive deficit. Or are we talking turning a blind eye?

OK you probably won't want to answer that :))

And why aren't they looking to return East Street to its former glory as a "destination market" to recoup some of the losses? Too much effort compared to North Cross Road?

[Keef]

  Quote

And why aren't they looking to return East Street to its former glory as a "destination market" to recoup some of the losses? [/quote

Because it's not the 80s anymore?

[Sue]

Keef Wrote:

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> And why aren't they looking to return East Street

> to its former glory as a "destination market" to

> recoup some of the losses? [/quote

>

> Because it's not the 80s anymore?

xxxxxxxx

Eh?

I'd have thought in a recession more people would be looking to go to markets.

Just, not expensive ones.

[peterstorm1985]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Eh?

>

> I'd have thought in a recession more people would

> be looking to go to markets.

>

> Just, not expensive ones.

I suppose the question here is whether or not markets have the ability to be cheaper than supermarkets/low cost high street retailers. In my youth we shopped in markets all the time but that was before the supermarkets went into battle against each other, and Primark and the other pile em high sell em cheap stores were still having their goods made in the UK/Ireland. If I see a market on my travels then I usually take a look but other than the odd bowl of mangos at a bargain price because there's a seasonal glut I rarely find myself noticing any significant financial advantage.