Waitrose or M&S TYPE supermarket - do we want one on LL?

[Penguin68]

This whole thread is quite bizarre ? supermarkets don?t arrive at locations by petition, for goodness sake. They are very careful in how they plan their locations, dependent on:-

? Demographics/ catchment area ? there must be sufficient customers in or regularly visiting the locale (passing trade) to justify investment. Despite some enthusiasm shown on this thread (and that?s mitigated by lack of enthusiasm) I am not sure that they would actually get the footfall.

? Existing (competitive) outlets ? ED?s existing good range of butchers, fishmonger, delicatessens, cheese shops etc. (plus DKH Sainsbury?s with good parking) all mean that they aren?t going to be coming into a desert as far as their product offers are concerned. Clearly they would take trade away from the existing outlets ? but exactly the sort of people who declare a liking for M&S and Waitrose also declare loyalty to good local shops. They would be entering a fiercely competitive arena, not the ?easy pickings; low hanging fruit? they would prefer to go for (and why not?).

? Impact on their own outlets (cannibalisation) ? how many EDers who would use these don?t already buy from either M&S or Waitrose when up in town? A local outlet loses those sales, even though overall sales might rise. But what would be the marginal increase?

? Availability of suitable (size/ position) locations ? all these shops have minimum sizes and take into account issues such as transport, parking when choosing them. There are very few sites in ED which would suit.

So, this whole thread seems to miss the obvious point, which is that if we were such a good choice for these outlets, why aren?t they already here? There were better choices for them in the past, and as ED becomes more ?fashionable?, with increasing numbers of good, local, non-chain outlets it is increasingly a more difficult (and probably less profitable) market for them to enter.

M&S only opened in the King?s Road only when the local shops had effectively collapsed (I was living there then) and only a rather poor Safeways offered competition? that, thank goodness, isn?t happening here

[Horsebox]

In theory I'd like the additional choice of a Waitrose but if it means a chance that any independent stores could go out of business and leads to LL becoming 'just another high street' then against.

As many people have said already, the choice of shops is second to none and is part of what makes the area a nice place to live.

[Huguenot]

I think you're right to a degree Penguin68, but may be missing the fact that in Balham M&S Simply Food opened opposite Sainsbury so it's not a deal breaker.

Also don't overlook the incentives local councils can offer in terms of rates and shared investment in additional ameneties.

Finally, having worked with retail from an advertising perspective I know that there are plenty of things that big companies just don't see until you draw their attention to them.

ED still flags as a low income, high unemployment location on planning studies like Acorn and Mosaic. It's not going to flutter any flags for 'aspirational' retail planners unless attention is drawn by other means.

So yeah, if we wanted to draw attention to ED, there's plenty that could be done - it's not a completely redundant conversation.

[rbrtdngl]

I am in the same position as pablogrande, namely that by the time I arrive home most of the shops are shut. I would love to see a proper indoor food market with numerous independent traders / cafes.

[James Barber]

I believe a lot of cash leaves East Dulwich to be spent in Sainsbury's or Tesco's. That on such shopping trips many items that could have been bought locally aren't.

It's still clear around 25% in favour, 50% against and remainder not sure for a Waitrose or M&S TYPE supermarket of roughly the size as the current Coop.

Clear that many find the current Coop unreliable. I'll try contacting them. Any improvement would help keep us all shop more locally.

How would people feel about a supermarket along the lines of The People's Supermarket where members put in 4 hours work a month cooperatively to receive a 20% discount?

[ImpetuousVrouw]

The People's Supermarket seems like a much better idea.

[thebestnameshavegone]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> Tbnhg getting it wrong again.

>

> If you bothered to read the thread you would

> discover that 'yes' currently sits just under

> 25%.

>

> Think before engaging keyboard mate.

Thanks for the ever-consistent patronising tone.

My point was more that this forum is a small percentage of east dulwich, and I would hope that our councillor won't be basing any decisions solely on the opinions of a few sharp-elbowed folk on here.

[thebestnameshavegone]

ImpetuousVrouw Wrote:

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> The People's Supermarket seems like a much better

> idea.

They are a bit like a 'hippy Londis', if you've ever been in.

Manchester's Unicorn is probably one of the best-realised co-ops in the country, imagine SMBS if it was bigger and not utterly overpriced. Something like that would probably do very well.

http://www.unicorn-grocery.co.uk/

[ImpetuousVrouw]

The Unicorn site looks really good. Go on Mr Barber, release your inner hippy!

[Keef]

Agreed, and it might show that there really is no need to pay excessively high prices for some fruit and veg!

[ImpetuousVrouw]

Yep, quality that is affordable is definitely something I'd like to see.

[tomchance]

I'll register my nod against another chain supermarket, whether upmarket or not.

[Sue]

James Barber Wrote:

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> How would people feel about a supermarket along

> the lines of The People's Supermarket where

> members put in 4 hours work a month cooperatively

> to receive a 20% discount?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I'd be well up for that, though again provided it didn't result in our small food shops closing down.

But if that's going to happen anyway in ED, I'd rather it was for something like this than another (insert your own swear word here) high street chain, "aspirational" or not.

[Penguin68]

Hugenot wrote:-

but may be missing the fact that in Balham M&S Simply Food opened opposite Sainsbury so it's not a deal breaker.

and I would entirely agree that if that was all ED had to offer it would be attractive - however add Sainsbury's for all the run-of-the-mill purchases (with its very handy parking) to the specialist shops which already exist in LL and you get a much stronger competitive position which Waitrose or M&S would have to break into.

Dulwich and ED/ WD sit as a little affluent pimple on what is still - looking just slightly wider - a relatively low income/ high unemployment area in Southwark/ Lewisham. I am not sure what the numbers are that would support a 'local' high end supermarket, but I suspect that with what's already available for us to buy in (and would thus have to be shared) the numbers aren't strong enough. I do know that advisors to the John Lewis group (and, I suspect) M&S, do know about ED and Dulwich - when Margaret Thatcher moved here that would have triggered interest - they won't just rely on the census driven Acorn and Mozaic - so failing to single us out is probably not some strange oversight, but a considered decision.

If I was one of the small, specialist shopkeepers or stall holders who serve this area - where you can buy good meat, fish, vedge, specialist grocery and cheese etc. etc. I would not be happy to see a local counsellor so keen to reduce my sales and profits, and possibly drive me away from the area. Almost certainly the benefits of increased passing trade visiting the posh shopping would be entirely off-set and more by lost trade to locals.

And as someone who lives round here I am not that happy to see more drivers pulled in for posh-shopping into an already congested area - those who come at night for the restaurants etc. are much less intrusive than the day-time parkers, and have more space to park in once restrictions are lifted in LL.

[James Barber]

Hi Penguin68,

Useful feedback.

As I've stated several times my asking was from attending South Southwark Business Association meeting where I was asked by local traders how could we get more people spending their money in Lordship Lane businesses rather than the likes of Sainsbury's + in response to interest shown on this forum in the past for this type of shop.

Most people I talk to don't shop at both Sainsbury's and the local traders.

Hi thebestnameshavegone & ImpetuousVrouw,

Unicorn looks interesting.

[Gimme]

Some fair points there Huguenot but Balham has a heck of a lot of small independent shops, delis and restaurants as well as those you mentioned. In particular, Bedford Hill is full of small trendy clothes and gift shops these days. Maybe the appalling shops stick in the memory better.

The one brownfield site near LL is the site next to Dulwich hospital. Makes total sense to sell this for development and put the money into refurbishing the hospital.

My personal view is that I'd rather see the empty shop sites (e.g. Threshers and pharmacy next door and stationary shop next to EDT) filled first before seeing another supermarket. And no more bl**dy estate agents!!! (note for estate agent employees: we have some very nice existing estate agents... we just don't need any more!)

Huguenot Wrote:

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> I see your point on Balham Gimme, but...

>

> ...thinking about Balham Hight Street, I don't

> remember it for being a LL? I remember a

> Wetherspoons, an amusement arcade, a Woolworths, a

> McDonalds, a Boots, a WH Smith, a Greggs, (an M&S

> Simply Food), a Carphone Warehouse...

>

> In a short, a bit of a dump.

>

> Is this proposal for a store actually on LL with a

> carpark adjacent to the store that could benefit

> other independent retailers?

>

> I can't think of a large brownfield site that

> meets that requirement (as there was in Balham - I

> lived there when they built it)

[pablogrande]

One thing that would help a lot of the shops is a custmer service course, I can think of at least five I won't shop in due to poor attitudes. On the plus side there's a few that really stand out for the opposite and is what I think small independenta are all about.

Out of interest James do you have an idea of the split of types of premises in the lane? ie how many premises there are, how many are empty, how many are food retailers etc? I think one of the problems is there are too many places that you would only buy things every few months eg gift shops and not enough places where you can buy day to day bits and pieces but I guess that's the price we pay for supermarkets selling such diverse things now.

[catma]

James Barber Wrote:

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> I was asked by local traders how

> could we get more people spending their money in

> Lordship Lane businesses rather than the likes of

> Sainsbury's +

Is there a difference between money spent in a Waitrose on LL or in Sainsburys on DKH. Both cases have money going to large companies and not local traders.

[huncamunca]

why is there so much interest in this hypothetical question ?

lets take the long term view

90% of the current residents of ED are going to be off to Sevenoaks and environs anyway in a handful of years, so this really isnt going to me a significant issue for you is it ?

[Keef]

Heh heh

[ktstn]

No thank you, we already have enough supermarkets.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Jesus snorky, does the nihilism ever get too much to bear?

Walter Sobchak: Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

[Penguin68]

James wrote:

attending South Southwark Business Association meeting where I was asked by local traders how could we get more people spending their money in Lordship Lane businesses rather than the likes of Sainsbury's

This is about (must be about) improving their own offer, not relying on bringng someone else in (who might just steal their trade), so, thinking of the 4 Ps of marketing (product, place, price, promotion) - place (LL) is a given - so they need to compete on product (including service surround), price and promotion. What service (product) could they offer? - well, they could work together to offer home delivery - that might get people spending more with them and they could optimise around one delivery service to support them all. They could offer joint promotions (buy from one shop, get a voucher to offer money off in another on LL) - they could offer special price deals to encourage higher levels of purchase and so on.

Relying on someone else to come in and somehow change the market environment would be hugely dangerous, as it could well be changed to their significant disadvantage - they need to think about their own marketing - but by all means think cooperatively if they can work together to boost local trade.

Clearly an attractor who didn't compete with any of them and could bring-in extra passing trade is a possibility, but for that to work effectively the infrastructure (particularly local parking) has to improve dramtically - to be honest the best use (in this instance) for the Dulwich Hospital site (if it isn't to be used for local health purposes) would be as a secure, low price multi-story carpark to encourage more people to come to LL to shop - not that I am actually advocating that.

[huncamunca]

white middle class "creatives" and their ilk do not tend to hang around the vibrant / multi cultural / diverse/ etc streets of SE London once their get the taste of Grammar schools and a beach hut in shitty whitstable with the profits they can make on the disposal of 3 bed semi in SE22 with period features and GCH ( not tested )

[legalbeagle]

Blimey huncamunca, someone smacked you with a grumpy stick today?!