Waitrose or M&S TYPE supermarket - do we want one on LL?

[Horsebox]

BeccaL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have heard

> that Val's shop by the plough is going to close

> because of the new sainsburys - no more of this

> please.

BeccaL, where did you hear this?

[showboat]

No, no, no, no, please never no!

We really don't need Waitrose or M+S round here. As many have stated - there's enough choice already and it could only serve to homogenise (did I spell that right? - it's late and I'm tired!) Lordship Lane. Rents go up, property prices go up even further, and people will start to judge the area based solely on the fact that it has those kind of shops.

No good could come of it.

Oh, and the fact that SMBS, East Dulwich Deli, Mr Sparkes, William Rose, the fishmonger and all the various bakeries already sell vastly superior product. Do you really want a whole new shop just for those occasions when you can't be bothered to cook?

[louisiana]

I think the best thing that James could do wrt to LL retail is to ensure that we get the crossing we've all been waiting for for so many years, as soon as possible. Shoppers should not have to feel they are taking their lives in their hands on every shopping trip to the Lane.

If something doesn't happen soon, I'll be tempted to mount a sit-down protest in the Lane. B)

[Gubodge]

No, absolutely not. I love Waitrose, but it being further away means that all I ever buy from supremarkets are the bulk basics. All my meat/cheese/fruit/veg comes from local independents. But it is meat and cheese particularly that the 'aspirational' supermarkets do so much better than the bogstandard chains and I think it would be a small proportion of shoppers who would continue to support the Cheese Block or Libretto's for anything other than a special occasion shop when given the convenience of high quality produce under the same roof as the loo roll and breakfast cereal.

Down with convenience!

[louisiana]

One of the points that came out of the Norfolk item I posted a link to above is that in the study, nobody but nobody shopped at the supermarket and then walked to the other shops.

[Mrs Y]

My vote would be for M&S or Waitrose, I might have got my christmas pudding - heston christmas pudding.

[rbrtdngl]

I would like to know on what grounds are we establishing a notion of value for judging what shops should or should not be permitted on LL? Can anyone tell me?

[louisiana]

I don't think that's quite the right question. AFAIK, I don't think anyone is suggesting that - for example - Waitrose is not the type of shop that should "be permitted on LL; hardly anyone would assign such a store a low value. Quite the contrary. The issue is somewhat more complex; as are the planning considerations.

As others have mentioned, it's important to know the site proposed (and size/range of store). Highly likely that any directly competing shops within a short radius would end up in difficulties, but even non-competing shops seem to suffer from drops in local footfall where there is parking offered.

[Keef]

maybe getting rid of iceland for m+s or Waitrose (both of which have much higher environmental credentials).[/quote

Brilliant! What a geat way to justif your snobbery

[first mate]

NO!

I don't know what your views are on this James but I'd be interested to know?

Like others here I don't believe we need another supermarket, it can only damage our wonderful indie shops. We don't want to have an anchor store that attracts other big chains to the area. The beauty of ED is that it has so many indie shops and therefore feels a bit different. We're lucky enough to have butchers, cheese shops, bakers, a fishmonger, delis and greengrocers. The livelihood of all of these might be threatened by another big supermarket.

Please don't let ED be destroyed by offering it up for sale to the chains.

What do you think James? Do you support the idea of another supermarket?

[Jeremy]

I think it would be great, but only if it replaced Co-op, Sainsbury's, or Iceland. It would be very popular, especially with returning commuters at 6pm-8pm.

However, the existing supermarkets are presumably profitable, so they won't be going anywhere. And as others have said, the impact on the independent shops would be unpredictable.

[zeban]

(In response to Keef's post)Here we go again. I don't know why James had to start this thread about an 'aspirational' supermarket because I knew it would end up reverting back to the whole snobbery issue. You can get frozen food in all supermarkets and they're often cheaper than Iceland. Iceland's round pound deal makes you think you're getting value for money when you're not. For that reason I think Iceland is pretty crap. It's not all about snobbery.

I don't 'aspire' to anything if I shop at Waitrose. I just like the choice that another supermarket gives me. I probably wouldn't buy my basics here if they were cheaper elsewhere, although Waitrose price matches Sainsbury's often. But for end of the day bargains and different products that I couldn't find elsewhere then I'd definitely go there. Also, as much as I love the idea of Co-op, the one on LL isn't great and is not well stocked.

[sambobia]

What I personally want is to preserve the existing integrity of the Lane, and its body of independent shops. These do much to give ED its neighbourly feel and, in my experience, often beat the supermarkets on quality and price.

This means opposing further supermarket expansion, aspirational and otherwise.

[Cassius]

I would love a Waitrose however the word 'Aspirational' is off-putting - aspire to what I wonder? that I would vote No.

[MichaelNx]

"Aspirational" is a marketing term for consumers wishing to define themselves as somehow superior through their brand choice. There is an element of snobbery in the way the original question is posed, i.e., Would people prefer to shop somewhere that is perceived to be more exclusive, luxurious and altogether lovelier than what is currently available and more in keeping with how they would like to be seen?

James appears to believe a Waitrose or M&S on Lordship Lane in addition to the already existing supermarkets is a good idea.

There is, however, a significant body of evidence pointing to supermarket expansion onto the high street directly causing the decline in numbers of independent local traders, particularly grocers, butchers, fishmongers and specialist food shops of the sort that makes Lordship Lane the thriving place it is. A House of Commons all party committee in 2006 concluded that by 2015 very few small retailers would survive in the face of unfair competition from the supermarkets.

Should you care to read it, you can find it at:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_02_06_highstreet.pdf

I'm at a loss to see how anyone who purports to represent the interests of the local community can be in favour of something that will in all probability have a detrimental impact on the livelihoods of established and,thankfully, currently well supported independent small businesses that make Lordship Lane the vibrant thriving high street it is now just to have a fridge full of food with slightly swankier labels.

[RosieH]

So zeban - the big four all do round pound deals - are they also making you think you're getting value for money when you're not, and therefore pretty crap?

[redjam]

I'm also against another supermarket opening on the lane, aspirational or otherwise. It's one of the great joys of living here that there are so many thriving independent food shops - it would be disastrous to the area to jeopardise that.

Edited to add: I'd be in favour if it was replacing one of the existing supermarkets, as that wouldn't affect the balance of the area. But a new one, in addition to the three we've already got: no.

[DulwichFox]

Waitrose can open in one of the small closed shops and then as it puts all of the remaining

small traders out of business, it can expand till it owns a complete parade of shops.

Then we can kiss goodbye to any community spirit left in E.D.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Interesting that the assumption is that an M&S/Waitrose would kill off the indie small shops.

Not so, I would opine. Given that the nearest such shops are some way away (dont know where) such aspirational supies would draw people into the area and so boost passing trade for the whole of the Lane.

People who buy their veg and meat from the posh veg and meat indie shops on the Lane will continue to do so, as they tend to treat supies as the work of the devil; would rather scrub the crap off their carrots themselves and are happy to pay for that honour.

The rest of the shops on the Lane have nothing to fear as they sell sparkly things, books, sea-weed based face packs for young children or are boozers.

[cyber]

"Aspirational supermarket" - what a nauseating term......

[nashoi]

No for all the reasons stated above. Richmond is a great example of an area that you would think could support indie food shops, but the nearest butchers is 1.5 miles from the centre and is pretty poor when you get there. There is however a Waitrose that they can all go to in their 4x4s.

[James Barber]

That seems pretty clear to me.

5 for, 10 against a nd 8 not so sure.

Hi Bumpkin,

I'm not keen to promote chains - I took a days holiday to attend the public planning inquiry and spoke against Caffe Nero. But most local residents do the bulk of their food shopping outside of Lordship Lane. Once they travel to the Sainsbury's of this world they buy other things they might have bought on Lordship Lane.

Hi Comutedshortly,

The ED Police station I'm hoping will be replaced by a new Police station with housing above. That's certainly the line I've discussed with the past and current head of Policing in Southwark.

Hi Keef,

Sorry to disbuse you but I don't feel more comfortable with aspriational people. Its a developers term for supermarkets not aiming for the Iceland segment or Sainsbury's, Tesco's, Coop segment.

I can assure you I am working hard on other areas but just wanted to get a quick sounding out following up from the 'what does ED need' thread where repeatedly posters have asked for an M&S/Waitrose segment type store.

Hi louisina,

VERY keen to ensure Lordship Lane is full of local shops. Concerned by the recent trend of estate agents to merge two shop units into bigger estate agent shops. Increasing shop unit sizes is the road to a chain high street. We now only have 50:50 shops and none shop uses.

[brum]

I would like to see more indie shops on LL and not more supermarkets. Although I do like the quality in Waitrose or M&S, I am happy to forego this if it means greater diversity of choice on the Lane.

[zeban]

-

[Keef]

Fair enough James, I just thought the tone of wor original post was off. I can believe the term aspirational comes from developers, but I think usingge word here immediately gave me, and perhaps others, the wrong idea, as it does sound snobbish.