Waitrose or M&S TYPE supermarket - do we want one on LL?

[RosieH]

Sean, deliberately contrary much? YOU might be a natural wizard in the kitchen, but not everyone is.

However, I think the need for Gu puddings is already answered by Tesco Metro and Sainsbury's Local, no?

[Keef]

I've tasted Sean's cooking, he's not all that to be honest.

[Keef]

Seriously though Sean, your circumstances are different from a lot of families, who rely on all the offers in the supermarkets, that you just don't get in the local shops.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I tend to agree with Keef about my food. But it's still better than any ready made meals. I won't die of a stroke at 50 from hydrogenated fats and salt.

And I also take his point about how not all families have similar circumstances. But I would argue that many people on here and most who would shop at a waitrose have extremely similar circumsances

But even if they provided they bestest food in the world there is still something depressing about

A) millions of people eating the EXACT same food every night

B ) people willingly giving up skills to choose and cook what they want

And all this just to get to another homogenised high street. Whoop de fucking doo

[SeanMacGabhann]

As for the supermarkets helping poorer families, repeated studies have debunked that myth. They aren't all bad btw. I'm not 100% Ian Paisley no no no but when I hear people saying "yes please it will show the area is on the up" I despair.

[Jeremy]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> but when I hear people saying "yes please it will show the area is on the up" I despair.

I agree with you there. That's just about the worst reason put forward on this whole thread. And I expect more people are thinking it than care to let on.

[RosieH]

Hell yes. It will show the area is turning into Clapham, and I for one bleed from the eyeballs at the sight of a turned up collar on a rugby shirt.

And Sean, yes of course you're right about food. The problem is we've lost a lot of those skills, and there are other people who would never have had them anyway. So where once the non-cookers of the world would be content with a tin of soup if there were nowt else open than the corner shop, now, eyes bright and stomachs growling from a glut of gastro porn, Heinz 57 Varieties aren't good enough, and it's Thai curry or jambalaya they're a'cravin'. Bring back cheese on toast I say.

[Keef]

I also agree with that last bit.

As for the supermarkets helping poorer families, repeated studies have debunked that myth.

If you're going like for like, perhaps. People will tend to go in to the supermarket and buy what is on offer though, and that is how they save.

Oh, and your cooking was very nice really. >:D<

[SeanMacGabhann]

Cheers but it would mean more if you didn't use THAT smiley!

[zeban]

RosieH Wrote:

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> Hell yes. It will show the area is turning into

> Clapham, and I for one bleed from the eyeballs at

> the sight of a turned up collar on a rugby shirt.

I'm soooo with you on that one Rosie!

[david_carnell]

Oh come on Keef - even you can't believe that.

The reason supermarkets even do those offers is to get people through the door because they know that once there they won't be able to help themselves and walk away with not just the 2-for-1 offer but a trolley full of other crap they never needed in the first place that is often over priced.

If you genuinely go to Sainsbos and only walk out with just the stuff on offer you've got more willpower than 99% of the population.

Ever wondered why the wine in supermarkets is suddenly reduced? Because for the preceding 3 months it was massively overpriced. So now, even though it's been "reduced" by 50% there is still a massive profit to be made. It's not placed at the back of the store for no reason either....it's so you have to walk through the rest of the store, eyeing all the lovely produce on offer first. Same with bread, another loss leader. Whole studies have been conducted into shopper-supermarket psychology.

And this is before we look at the effect price wars have on our farmers and suppliers who are forced into bankruptcy by the price demands placed on them by supermarkets who have the buying power to demand what they want. Have you never considered why farmers have a ever growing suicide rate? They can't make ends meet. Why? Because of incessant consumer demand for cheaper and cheaper produce orchestrated by supermarkets and their phoney "price-wars".

No one wins.

[RosieH]

Lots of people do you know David. Lots of people have budgets that they have no choice but to stick to, and that's what makes your almost pathologically anti-supermarket stance come over as a bit let them eat cake. Some people actually prefer shopping in supermarkets, no matter how much you tell them they're idiots.

Of course supermarkets try to sell you more than you need, in the same way that sommeliers will try to upsell on the wine, or clothes shop assistants will try to sell you a belt to go with your new slacks. It's the nature of selling. It's about profit.

Shopping carefully in a supermarket should save you money. Myself, I prefer shopping locally - mostly, but not always, the quality is better. But careful is still the order of the day - a fiver for a bunch of tomatoes still made me do a double take at one of our lovely local shops.

And East Dulwich is blessed with fantastic small shops. What would you suggest people do for food, when they don't have that same luxury?

[SeanMacGabhann]

I think by his stance Carnell is trying to prevent that happening rather than worrying when it's too late . And given that the shops are more likely to disappear with supermarkets dominating it's a bit monopolistic

The argument about poor families is a repeated refrain - and not in any way invalid - but it's not one that most of the people begging for M&S and Waitrose are bothered with surely. I don't think anyone is suggesting abolosh supermarkets but if people are arguing for more (and expensive ones at that) it's fair to point out the folly of that argument?

[david_carnell]

I would suggest that by buying cheap cuts of meat at William Rose, unavailable at supermarkets (unless Sainsbury's have recently started selling offal, beef skirt or breast of lamb) and then having a relationship with their local butcher thus obtaining freebies like chicken carcasses or beef bones enabling one to make cheap soups, stocks etc you can save a darn sight more than you think.

You know, if these people that we are hypothetically talking about were that poor they wouldn't be in any supermarket. They'd be shopping on Rye Lane buying broiler chickens for ?1.50. But they don't because, well, it's a bit smelly and dirty, and they're socially aspirational.

It's not "let them eat cake"....it's take your blinkers off, look around you at the good value and better quality produce you can buy locally and spot bleating about it all being because supermarkets offer good value when they blatantly don't.

And I'd rather someone who did PR for a major supermarket chain didn't accuse me of being pathologically anti-supermarket. It's a cheap jibe.

[Keef]

Oh come on Keef - even you can't believe that.

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but anyway.

I was listening to Radio 4 about a week ago, when they were talking about people budgeting, especially at the moment. Lots of people were phoning in / emailling in, saying that they look at leaflets through the door from supermarkets, and they go and get the bargains. I was actually quite surprised to hear it, but funnily enough, I didn't think they were lying, so yes, I believe it, especially at the moment when belts are being tightened.

I know supermarkets have offers to get people through the doors, but people who are out shopping for their family of 4 or 5, will go and get stuff at the cheapest possible price.

I'm not talking about me here David, I'm rubbish with money, and regularly blow a load of cash in the crappy little Tesco around the corner from me. However, my mum always amazed me, how she'd make her (very small) budget last, and she's not the only one.

[Keef]

The argument about poor families is a repeated refrain - and not in any way invalid - but it's not one that most of the people begging for M&S and Waitrose are bothered with surely.

That's fair enough, but you seemed to be talking more generally.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm pretty sure you didn't mean it keef, but your post makes the supermarkets sound like benevolent charities, observing the number of poor people across the land and printing vouchers to help them. If I wanted to help poor people I would take all the food the supermarkets reject for being the wrong shape and pass that onto poor people - that's just for starters.

Your point about your mum (and others) being good with money still holds tho - there are all manner of ways of making money last - and they don't have to involve supermarkets. David pointed out a couple earlier

[SeanMacGabhann]

not sure which of my posts suggested that. I held off posting in this thread by and large for exactly this reason - 17 pages of obviously relatively affluent people on the "yes please to M&S and Waitrose" and as soon as a few of us start to posit why that might be a bad thing, out come arguments about poor people.

I'll say again - poor people around the world eat better (healthier, tastier) than poor British people - there is a reason. A general incuriousity about food coupled with a pre-disposition for convenience. (and those characteristics exist across the spectrum of incomes - hence the rubbish food in Dulwich Village for example)

erm, james - best put me down as a no btw

[Keef]

I'm pretty sure you didn't mean it keef, but your post makes the supermarkets sound like benevolent charities, observing the number of poor people across the land and printing vouchers to help them.

No I didn't mean it, but also not sure how my post can be read that way.

And yes, David did point out a couple of fair ways to save cash, one of which relies upon you having a nice friendly butcher in your area.

Anyway, I didn't come on here to make it about rich and poor people either, despite the fact that some people (David) think that I live to have a go at the middle classes in ED. I was genuinely just responding to a point.

So, back on topic. Funnily enough I agree with Sean about this particulr question, of an "aspirational" *gags* supermarket in ED.

[karter]

(tu) to RosieH for keeping it local.

Me wonders if DC has more willpower that 99% of the population and left Sainsbos last night without buying all the extra crap. Or was it just popeye food for dini dins.

Is the council thinking of doing away with the mental health clinic and selling to a store? Why?

[Jeremy]

We've been through this all before. Butchers offer better quality/value for a lot of things (maybe even most). But if I was seriously short of cash, I'd head straight to Asda for cheap mince, big packs of bargain drumsticks, etc. Not sure what any of this has to do with the hypothetical "status symbol" supermarket though.

[SeanMacGabhann]

up to you but at ?4.40 per kilo on mince beef at Asda I'm not sure what bargain you are getting - and it tastes of little bullets

[SeanMacGabhann]

ok you can get slightly cheaper

but no better bargains than a butcher and tasting of shite still

[david_carnell]

karter Wrote:

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> Me wonders if DC has more willpower that 99% of

> the population and left Sainsbos last night

> without buying all the extra crap. Or was it just

> popeye food for dini dins.

>

Despite your slightly creepy, stalker-like tendencies (and this isn't the first time you've done this to close friends of mine) I've never said that I never use supermarkets. I know the inherent hypocrisy involved but I'll agree that on occasion there is no where else locally to purchase certain items at certain times. In fact, if you bother to read my comments a few pages back I recommended that local shops stayed open late one night per week for just that reason.

But with friends for dinner, and meringues to buy (along with some other bobbins on my list) I had little choice.

If that makes a hypocrite, so be it. It doesn't make any of my arguments less valid.

The meringues were junk btw. Only one type were on offer. I'd have much rather have bought from Frog On the Green, the Cheeseblock, the EDD or Lucas bakery but by the time I'd finished work, none were still open. Room for improvement perhaps. But it reaffirmed my belief that they all offer a superior product for not much more in the way of pennies.

Perhaps if supermarkets encroached on your business, you'd be more concerned.

[karter]

ha ha nice one David, well we were in there too to buy items that we could not buy else where at that time for a dinner party and for your info were going to say hi and happy new year to you but after grabbing your spinach you rushed off down the aisle, next time though. Thanks for your kind words too.