Waitrose or M&S TYPE supermarket - do we want one on LL?

[Louisa]

silverfox Wrote:

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> If they both sold the same weight of

> package, eg 1.81 kg, then Iceland's peas @ 10

> grams for a penny work out over 28p more

> expensive.

silverfox, IF is the key word in the above sentence. Sainsbury's offer a more substantial quantity in this example, but it is still 52p more expensive, some people may prefer to spend ?1 rather than having to fork out the extra 52p for more of the same product! The point is, Sainsbury's cheapest example of the above product was still more expensive than the same item at Iceland, regardless of quantity!

Louisa.

[zeban]

So now poor people are so stupid they wouldn't want to pay less for more??? I don't get your argument Louisa

[silverfox]

True Louisa, but not as good value (unless Iceland's peas are superior quality).

Generally speaking I find cheap shops are not better value - you may think you're getting better value or a bargain but it's only because weights/sizes aren't standardized. This is deliberately done to fool customers methinks. It's bad enough in Sainbury's trying to compare the best prices of, say, coffee, even with the fact Sainsbury's breaks down the cost per gram/ml. This even applies to different sizes of the same product. For example, you pay more relatively for a smaller jar of Nescafe coffee than you do for a large jar - and this often applies when the smaller jars are also discounted.

[belladonna]

Oh M & S would be the death of Lordship Lane, as would waitrose...it would entice more cars, kill local business, What are you on? Co-op at the moment isn't brilliant,write to them, at least they espouse ethical shopping ( and the lack of choice means you don't s-pend So MUch...With a huge Sainsbury's each end of ED, what else do you need? M& S nice, but so much packaging. I'm so bored with supermarkets anyhow, Pretty Traditional, Cheese Block, William Rose SMBS and ED Deli, what else do you want? do people want to stick a knife into locally run businesses? I've started shopping in Broca, too. Or hit Peckham, Honor Oak Forest Hill, Enough of the shopping!

[Dorothy]

I do find the co-op dismal, tis true. I was actually quite fond of our old Somerfield (possibly looking through rose-tinted specs here) but I cannot entertain the argument that we need a Waitrose or M&S - for the post 6.30pm commuters -on Lordship Lane. Why can you not buy your ready meals at London Bridge or Victoria or wherever else you commute home from before you get on the bus/train?

Anything else you need in an emergency is still available on LL, or at Tesco Express near Goose Green, or Sainsburys Local on LL or, indeed, Val's, who has an enormous variety of good quality stock.

[Horsebox]

Dorothy Wrote:

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> Anything else you need in an emergency is still

> available (from)

> Val's, who has an enormous variety of good quality

> stock.

Which incidentally, IS NOT going out of business, despite unfounded mutterings to the contrary on here.

I was in there tonight - both Nisha & husband were very surprised to hear these rumours and asked me to say that they have no plans to close down anytime soon.

(Apologies for the creative editing, Dorothy.)

[Applespider]

Because some of us don't want a ready meal (or a Simply Food for that matter); I'd rather be able to buy decent quality ingredients and pick up other bits of my weekly shop so that I'm not lugging multiple bags home at the weekend. That's things like good bread flour (Waitrose own brand is better than Allinson's or Hovis and cheaper) or perhaps fresh crab to name two of things I had delivered by Ocado last week.

Yes, those people fortunate enough to work at home who can get to the lovely LL shops during the week may not need/want a Waitrose but why should the rest of us have to pay out the inflated prices (at the Simply Foods or Local/Expresses) or put up with the poorer selection at Sainsburys.

[danrees]

What is the point of a Waitrose when Ocado deliver to the area? It would put Moxon's, William Rose etc out of business.

[zeban]

Because you might only want to pick up a couple of items. What is the point of delivering in that case? No one is saying they would necessarily do their whole shop at Waitrose.

[silverfox]

A Waitrose/M&S would only put Moxon's/William Rose out of business if they offered a better range of meat/fish.

Before the East Dulwich Deli, William Rose and Moxon's moved in, Sainsbury's had extensive meat, fish and deli counters with a ticketing system that nearly led to fights as people wandered off to do other shopping because it took so long to get served and then popped back with their tickets claiming they were before other patient people queueing up. This was not helped by people who had tut-tutted in the queue while waiting to be served for 20 minutes who eventually got their turn and then couldn't decide what they wanted (another five minute delay...).

Now Sainsbury's has no ticketing system or queues at the meat, fish and deli counters which have been scaled down to a couple of cool fridges for each of these areas and most of the customers have now hit the Lane. Quite right too.

The success of Independent shops will always be that they offer someting different or better quality products, a personal touch in an impersonal (use the self-scan checkouts) world and are convenient, ie stay open after Town Hall hours.

[Applespider]

Not necessarily danrees. At the moment, I rarely shop for food in LL even on the weekend since I can't get everything I want there and since I need my Ocado order over ?40 for delivery, I get most of my groceries from them to make it worthwhile.

Put a good supermarket there and I'd be far more likely, on the weekend, to go into William Rose/Moxons to pick up my main ingredient and then nip into Waitrose to pick up the other staples.

[Tibbs]

I think you will find it was M&S who first computed to organic food not Iceland. Iceland does a good trade I see no reason why it could not work well alongside a waitrose or M&S they do not even see each other as competition so why should we?

Seriously though if this is a potential idea for the police station or any other site for that matter anything is better than a deralict site unusued by any legal business! Thinking about it that site would be too small for waitrose and too big for a simply food and the location is too far up.... What other site could it be?

[Keef]

Yes, those people fortunate enough to work at home who can get to the lovely LL shops during the week may not need/want a Waitrose

Lets be straight here, nobody actually needs a Waitrose do they.

[James Barber]

hi silverfox,

What are Town Hall hours?

I have meetings on the way to work at 7 or 8am. During lunch times, after work and have had several go on to the VERY early hours causing no end of grief at home - who is she, etc, etc. Most meetings however start at 7pm and go on to 10pm and beyond.

Saying that this Thursday looks to be a short one or two hour planning meeting.

[belladonna]

I completely concur with Woodleigh's the argument is unassailable. i think someone should print off this thread and forward it to the Co-op!

Another point, the people who shop in Iceland are in a different economic bracket from those ordering their weekly shop from Ocado. Those agitating for a Waitrose may forget not everyone from East Dulwich is looking for Ciabatta and Walnut Oil...oh I expect they come from the 'Peckham' end of LL...(unbelievable comment that one)

woodleigh Wrote:

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> A categoric "no" from me for the following

> reasons.

>

> - Detrimental impact on small independednts: this

> has been covered extensively in previous threads.

> The choice of good quality independent shops,

> particularly food shops, is what gives ED its

> character and sets it apart from anywhere else I

> can think of in London. Almost without exception,

> it is what friends of ours comment on when they

> come to visit. It is also not true (in all but a

> few cases) that the local independents are

> overpriced - it is simply that most of them are

> selling premium products. A Waitrose or M&S would

> slowly but surely kill off a lot of these shops.

> Waitrose in particular, which sets itself apart

> from other supermarkets by the quality of its

> fresh meat and fish, would be in direct

> competition with the likes of Moxons and William

> Rose. Laziness will take hold, and people will

> pick up their veg, meat and fish at the

> supermarket instead of local shops. I absolutely

> do not buy the argument that a Waitrose would

> bring more footfall to LL. The average Waitrose

> shopper gets out of their car, shops for the week,

> gets back in the car and drives home. They are

> not going to do their Waitrose shopping and then

> walk round the corner to Pretty Traditional to

> pick up a broccoli.

>

> - I can see the case for a Waitrose or M&S in an

> area where it fills a gap - i.e. where there is

> something missing. In Earlsfield, for example,

> residents were ecstatic about the prospect of an

> M&S Local because there's didly-squat on the high

> street except estate agents (although they got a

> Sainsbury's local in the end!). Similarly, in the

> average provincial town, there is usually no

> alternative to supermarket shopping. But we are

> in a completely different position here - there is

> nothing that a Waitrose or M&S can offer that we

> can't already get on LL, or (for non-fresh items

> and household goods) Sainsbury's on DKH.

>

> - The potential catchment area of a Waitrose or

> M&S on LL worries me. Neither of these stores has

> a branch anywhere close to ED, and a new store on

> LL could potentially draw a huge number of

> shoppers in from surrounding postcodes. The

> problem is, there is no infrastructure to cope

> with this influx. Parking would become unbearable

> (even if the store had a carpark, it would fill

> quickly during peak times, and spill out onto

> surrounding streets).

>

> - The statement in the initial post that a

> Waitrose or M&S would "help the area" puzzles me.

> It suggests that the area needs help. Help in

> what way exactly? I can only assume that what was

> meant here is that a Waitrose or similar would

> help the area in its continued gentrification and

> in establishing East Dulwich as a desirable

> postcode. I certainly have nothing agaist that

> (and everything to gain so far as house prices are

> concerned!) but to be honest ED is basically

> "there" already - only, unlike many other

> "aspiring" neighbourhoods, it has so far done so

> while maintaining individuality and character. To

> lose this would be a great shame, and it won't

> just be those who currently shop in the local

> independent shops who will notice the difference.

[silverfox]

What are lunch times James?

[OliviaDee]

no.

[coopsy76]

oh I expect they come from the 'Peckham' end of LL...(unbelievable comment that one)

To be fair, i think that was in response to the following comment made by edcam suggesting that The Plough end of LL wasn't in ED.

But does that far down Lordship Lane even really qualify as East Dulwich? It would be interesting to know where such a proposed supermarket would be as there's a big difference between the main bit of Lordship Lane and The Plough end.

[Keef]

Especially given that the plough isn't actually anywhere near either end, but more or less in the middle. Why not put it on Lordship Lane opposite the Harvester, that would annoy a few people in the low lands.

[edcam]

coopsy76 Wrote:

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> oh I expect they come from the 'Peckham' end of

> LL...(unbelievable comment that one)

>

> To be fair, i think that was in response to the

> following comment made by edcam suggesting that

> The Plough end of LL wasn't in ED.

>

> But does that far down Lordship Lane even really

> qualify as East Dulwich? It would be interesting

> to know where such a proposed supermarket would be

> as there's a big difference between the main bit

> of Lordship Lane and The Plough end.

And it was a fair comment, considering it's well over a mile away from the station. It isn't a jusgement, just a question re where such a proposed "posh shop" would be placed.

[Sue]

belladonna Wrote:

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>

> Another point, the people who shop in Iceland are

> in a different economic bracket from those

> ordering their weekly shop from Ocado. Those

> agitating for a Waitrose may forget not everyone

> from East Dulwich is looking for Ciabatta and

> Walnut Oil...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Eh? I use Walnut Oil, sometimes shop in Waitrose and also shop in Iceland.

I didn't realise I was only supposed to frequent certain shops depending on which "economic bracket" I was in. Must do better.

ETA: I don't want a Waitrose here, however.

[thebestnameshavegone]

I'd like someone to get rid of the homeless people I sometimes see blighting The Lane. I'm not sure about that Irish shop either.

[AlexC]

edcam Wrote:

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> And it was a fair comment, considering it's well

> over a mile away from the station. It isn't a

> jusgement, just a question re where such a

> proposed "posh shop" would be placed.

It's pretty much exactly one mile, and East Dulwich station isn't even in the East Dulwich ward - it's South Camberwell, but anyway I'm nitpicking :)

[edcam]

AlexC Wrote:

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> edcam Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > And it was a fair comment, considering it's

> well

> > over a mile away from the station. It isn't a

> > jusgement, just a question re where such a

> > proposed "posh shop" would be placed.

>

> It's pretty much exactly one mile, and East

> Dulwich station isn't even in the East Dulwich

> ward - it's South Camberwell, but anyway I'm

> nitpicking :)

You are really because my point is the main drag of LL is a very different place to The Plough end in terms of traffic, pedestrian trade, number of shops (chain and independent) etc. Not many people who live around the ED station end go shopping at the Plough end but it's a different case vice/versa.

[Keef]

Actually, the people that live near the plough (which I repeat, is nowhere near either END) probably shop in the sainsbury's, Val's, or go up to the forest hill sainsbury's.